Grace and the Law
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revjohn
Well-Known Member
blackbelt1961 said:
I believe the conversation is being hampered by competing understandings of what it means to be perfect.
The human body is a living organism, like a tree. It survives by a delicate dance of cellular division among other things. It is this cellular division which allows the body to grow, become stronger and stay relatively fresh.
The body gets older, hungry, cold or tired based on environmental factors which assist or impede all of that growth.
Eventually the cells run out of energy to divide and we start to atrophy. Or, sometimes the cells grow with undisciplined rapidity (cancer). Either way the body eventually breathes its last and life escapes it as it begins its descent back into the dust from which it came.
We don't know that such is not perfection.
Nor do we know that such is not part of creation which God finally pronounced to be very good.
We presume that before the fall people would have lived forever. We do not know that is what God intended. How were children to be born without growth in the womb? How are babies to become adults without growth? Why then do we presume that upon reaching maturity our bodies would suddenly stop what they have been doing since conception? We probably presumed that because it saved us the difficulty of actually thinking something through.
So. aging is not necessarily a sign of imperfection.
The rest of creation (which was not subjected to the fall just lives with the result) ages, hungers, needs shelter and eventually returns to the dust. Why would humanity be any different?
The issue, theologically speaking, is what does it mean for our flesh to be without sin?
If we can take Christ at his word sin is a problem not because it enters into a body but rather because it begins within the body. Remember it isn't drinking from dirty cups or eating out of a dirty bowl that makes us impure it is the thoughts that are born within our hearts and minds.
We know that Jesus got tired, angry, hungry and the like. Did any of that cause him to sin?
Again is scripture can be trusted it is not a sin to feel anger and scripture reminds us that we need to be mindful that in our anger we do not sin.
Jesus being fully human and fully divine (something I suspect none of us can fully comprehend because we are likely neither) had no sin in him (according to scripture). It helps if we remember that perfection isn't simply "without flaw" so much as it may mean complete or whole.
Hebrews 6: 1 said:
The Greek word employed is teliosteta and the root of that is telios. Telios has roughly four definitions, perfect is listed third.
It's like that Word Power section in the Reader's Digest says, "It pays to improve your word power."
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Blackbelt ,I am not sure were your at Blackbelt .
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Jas 3:2 For we all make many mistakes, and if any one makes no mistakes in what he says he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
airclean33
Well-Known Member
1 John 1:7
(7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
(7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
I agree RevJohn,
Aircleen believes the flesh itself is sin therefore Jesus body was perfect in that regard
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
and the rest of the world? The Holy Spirit does not work in the world??????????????
why do you keep ignoring this?
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Hi airclean33 ----This article on this word flesh ----- might help to clear things up ------see below
Paul is a good example of a person having the Holy Spirit and still struggling with what he does not to do but does ------Greek word for Flesh ---Sarx ----Understanding this word is very important ------http://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm
4561. sarx►
Strong's Concordance
sarx: flesh
Original Word:σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ
Part of Speech:Noun, Feminine
Transliteration:sarx
Phonetic Spelling
sarx)
Short Definition:flesh, body
Definition:flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.
HELPS Word-studies
4561sárksproperly,flesh("carnal"), merely of human origin or empowerment.
[4561/sárks("flesh") is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph 5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2,3). Indeed ,flesh(what is physical) is necessary for the body to live out the faith the Lord works in(Gal 2:20).]
4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions)according to self– i.e. done apart from faith(independent from God's in working). Thus what is "of the flesh(carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched(unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God.
This is a great article on this ----http://www.christcrucified.info/pdf/The Biblical Meaning of Flesh.pdf
The Biblical Meaning of “Flesh” ----worth the read -----
One factor contributing to Christians’ misunderstanding on how God has dealt with their old sinful nature is the translation of the Greek word sarx, which appears 147 times in the New Testament.
Paul is a good example of a person having the Holy Spirit and still struggling with what he does not to do but does ------Greek word for Flesh ---Sarx ----Understanding this word is very important ------http://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm
4561. sarx►
Strong's Concordance
sarx: flesh
Original Word:σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ
Part of Speech:Noun, Feminine
Transliteration:sarx
Phonetic Spelling
sarx)Short Definition:flesh, body
Definition:flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.
HELPS Word-studies
4561sárksproperly,flesh("carnal"), merely of human origin or empowerment.
[4561/sárks("flesh") is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph 5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2,3). Indeed ,flesh(what is physical) is necessary for the body to live out the faith the Lord works in(Gal 2:20).]
4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions)according to self– i.e. done apart from faith(independent from God's in working). Thus what is "of the flesh(carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched(unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God.
This is a great article on this ----http://www.christcrucified.info/pdf/The Biblical Meaning of Flesh.pdf
The Biblical Meaning of “Flesh” ----worth the read -----
One factor contributing to Christians’ misunderstanding on how God has dealt with their old sinful nature is the translation of the Greek word sarx, which appears 147 times in the New Testament.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Good Morning Rev John --From your post --202#--
Jesus being fully human and fully divine (something I suspect none of us can fully comprehend because we are likely neither) had no sin in him (according to scripture). It helps if we remember that perfection isn't simply "without flaw" so much as it may mean complete or whole.
Airclean--So just wondering John . How you see these Veres.
Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear.
Heb 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;
Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
Jesus being fully human and fully divine (something I suspect none of us can fully comprehend because we are likely neither) had no sin in him (according to scripture). It helps if we remember that perfection isn't simply "without flaw" so much as it may mean complete or whole.
Airclean--So just wondering John . How you see these Veres.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
--Hi Unsafe . I agree the flesh is not perfect it is sinful . We who are born again know this . As are spirit is saved. It wishes to obey GOD The Father.Well are flesh still feels the pull of the world. We are not perfect yet. The Christ in Jesus was perfect from the beginning . But the man Jesus the flesh had to learn to obey GOD , and He did . So God excepted Jesus as The perfect Lamb. No flesh before or after .Has ever obtained that.Only the first Adam had no sin at the beginning.But could not hold on to it, through life by not allowing his flesh to sin.Jesus The Christ then was the second Adam an through Him" ,we have received life" were we should have death.I believe this body will turn back into that which it came from.Dirt or Dust as GOD said.GOD Himself will give us a new Gown made of Heavenly Material .Zechariah3: 4---John 6:63--- Rev 19:6-8Hi airclean33 ----This article on this word flesh ----- might help to clear things up ------see below
Paul is a good example of a person having the Holy Spirit and still struggling with what he does not to do but does ------Greek word for Flesh ---Sarx ----Understanding this word is very important ------http://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm
4561. sarx►
Strong's Concordance
sarx: flesh
Original Word:σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ
Part of Speech:Noun, Feminine
Transliteration:sarx
Phonetic Spelling
Short Definition:flesh, body
Definition:flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.
HELPS Word-studies
4561sárksproperly,flesh("carnal"), merely of human origin or empowerment.
[4561/sárks("flesh") is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph 5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2,3). Indeed ,flesh(what is physical) is necessary for the body to live out the faith the Lord works in(Gal 2:20).]
4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions)according to self– i.e. done apart from faith(independent from God's in working). Thus what is "of the flesh(carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched(unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God.
This is a great article on this ----http://www.christcrucified.info/pdf/The Biblical Meaning of Flesh.pdf
The Biblical Meaning of “Flesh” ----worth the read -----
One factor contributing to Christians’ misunderstanding on how God has dealt with their old sinful nature is the translation of the Greek word sarx, which appears 147 times in the New Testament.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
revjohn
Well-Known Member
airclean33 said:
I'll answer. Not that I think you will listen. I suspect you have already imagined my answer and you are waiting for another opportunity to call me a liar.
airclean33 said:Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear.
While living Jesus offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears (passionate prayer) to his father in heaven and those prayers were heard.
airclean33 said:Heb 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;
As Son he learned obedience through suffering.
airclean33 said:Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
And being made perfect (complete/whole) he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.
Which leads back to the which came first discussion. Which came first airclean33, your obedience (which is imperfect as you are imperfect or his perfection becoming the source of eternal salvation?
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Rev John. I did not ask you to post to my question John , just to see were what you posted on it.
Your post John--
Which leads back to the which came first discussion. Which came first airclean33, your obedience (which is imperfect as you are imperfect or his perfection becoming the source of eternal salvation?
Airclean--- I was wondering did you read what I posted above?I am not perfection John . I am just on the first step . He who is perfect has made my spirit perfect like His. I know this for GOD is with me an in me. He is helping me to walk in His way, like He would a small child . which to Him I guess, I am a child. His child John . As stated in John 1:12-13.He is with us now and always . The Bible says He will never leave us. I babble on. Your question John who comes first. The Lord Jesus Christ , Then Gods Holy Spirit, Then I believe John if we really hold tight till the end. We leave this life to one that never ends.I know to you it may sound like we had to earn it. But I don't think so. Jesus said come follow me.He went through life , in all things He tried to follow only what The Father said.He died, and was raised again. By GODS power.He went to be with the father for a short time . At least to GOD. Then He come"s back. We will follow Him, for GODS Word says . Rev19: 14 We Will.
Your post John--
Which leads back to the which came first discussion. Which came first airclean33, your obedience (which is imperfect as you are imperfect or his perfection becoming the source of eternal salvation?
Airclean--- I was wondering did you read what I posted above?I am not perfection John . I am just on the first step . He who is perfect has made my spirit perfect like His. I know this for GOD is with me an in me. He is helping me to walk in His way, like He would a small child . which to Him I guess, I am a child. His child John . As stated in John 1:12-13.He is with us now and always . The Bible says He will never leave us. I babble on. Your question John who comes first. The Lord Jesus Christ , Then Gods Holy Spirit, Then I believe John if we really hold tight till the end. We leave this life to one that never ends.I know to you it may sound like we had to earn it. But I don't think so. Jesus said come follow me.He went through life , in all things He tried to follow only what The Father said.He died, and was raised again. By GODS power.He went to be with the father for a short time . At least to GOD. Then He come"s back. We will follow Him, for GODS Word says . Rev19: 14 We Will.
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If the flesh is imperfect ... how can a creature of flesh speak with such authority?
Perhaps a creature of bones would do better at disposing of topics of spirit ... and thus more ghostly ... as the bones of the story is scary ... and people like scary things ... Roger ... the jollies it is!
Perhaps a creature of bones would do better at disposing of topics of spirit ... and thus more ghostly ... as the bones of the story is scary ... and people like scary things ... Roger ... the jollies it is!
Bet Luce ND pot ever. Chuckling at Roger Federer Hollie!
Hermann
Well-Known Member
Divine Grace?
To me, Divine Grace is experiencing reality as it really is: an inseparable whole in a unified state of synthesis.
But if the state of Grace is the basic state of being, then why does not everyone experience it?
It think everyone and everything experiences it, but not everyone is perceptive to the experience. We humans are dominated and handicapped by our conceptual world view. We tend to experience what we think there is, not what there is. Once we let go of our concepts, and go deeply within and experience reality as it really is, then we experience the unity that underlies all diversity: Grace!
If the doors of perception were opened, then everything would appear to us as is: infinite.
-Aldous Huxley
Our knowledge is fragmentation, and our prophecies are fragmentation.
But when that which is perfect has come, then the fragmentation will end.
COR1,13:9-10 Martin Luther translation
I think what Paul refers to in the above letter as fragmentation is our analytical world view, which necessarily fragments the inseparable whole into parts. That which is perfect would be the experience of the inseparable whole as it really is: as a unified whole in a state of synthesis.
To me, Divine Grace is experiencing reality as it really is: an inseparable whole in a unified state of synthesis.
But if the state of Grace is the basic state of being, then why does not everyone experience it?
It think everyone and everything experiences it, but not everyone is perceptive to the experience. We humans are dominated and handicapped by our conceptual world view. We tend to experience what we think there is, not what there is. Once we let go of our concepts, and go deeply within and experience reality as it really is, then we experience the unity that underlies all diversity: Grace!
If the doors of perception were opened, then everything would appear to us as is: infinite.
-Aldous Huxley
Our knowledge is fragmentation, and our prophecies are fragmentation.
But when that which is perfect has come, then the fragmentation will end.
COR1,13:9-10 Martin Luther translation
I think what Paul refers to in the above letter as fragmentation is our analytical world view, which necessarily fragments the inseparable whole into parts. That which is perfect would be the experience of the inseparable whole as it really is: as a unified whole in a state of synthesis.
Neo
Well-Known Member
Perfection to me is not just at the cellular (and physical) level. And you described this well when you said "it isn't drinking from dirty cups or eating out of a dirty bowl that makes us impure it is the thoughts that are born within our hearts and minds.
The modern teachings say:
“The most important temples in life are the spirit, which must be fed with sincerity, the mind, which must be fed with honesty, and the body, which must be fed with right food. This will create harmony in mind, spirit and body.”
And so "perfection", it seems, is in the harmony or the syntheses between the spirit, mind and body. In the East, they called this process "polishing the mirror". This process was also described by the Master Jesus on the cross when He said "Thy will Father, not mine". Perfection, therefore, is a matter of alignment between spirit and the form (aka the "flesh").
If we, as mere humans, can even begin to align our words (our spirit), our thoughts and our actions, then we can begin to walk the path of perfection.
"Synthesis", says the Tibetan, "dictates the trend of all evolutionary processes today; all is working towards larger unified blocks, towards amalgamations, international relationships, global planning, brotherhood, economic fusion, the free flow of commodities everywhere, interdependence, fellowship of faiths, movements based upon the welfare of humanity as a whole, and ideological concepts which deal with wholes, and which mitigate against division, separation and isolation."
- from the AAB book The Rays and the Initiations
"Revelation concerns Oneness and nothing else. The practical nature of this truth is only recognised when the disciple attempts to do two things: To realise it individually and to bring the nature of planetary unity and of non-separateness to the minds and into the lives of men everywhere."
- Ibid
Neo
Well-Known Member
And me too.