God Can't by Thomas Jay Oord - Introduction, Chapters 1-4

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My take on chapter 1 was that god cannot intervene.
The only impact on the world physically is by human.

Therefore, when evil happens or when good happens, it is the result of humans. We believe that God loves us. we strive to emulate Jesus and respond to God's love as humans.

Prayer, then, is our ability to change our own ways or to listen to what is needed, what we can do in the world.

1. Why do you think some people believe God is unaffected and unemotional?
I have a sense that we model our understanding of God on what we know. There still lies out there, the image of a God of being an old white guy with a beard on a throne. "He" would not be affected by the trials of humans. He would not get emotional. He is a man, after all, with little call to show emotions.

2. How have bad views of God led you away from affirming God's loving empathy?
God has seemed distant. During the reflecting on this chapter, I keep finding myself humming, "what if God was one of us"

That song brought me quite a bit of comfort at a time in my life when I needed it. You know, the old spirituals do as well. My sense there are a people who have a personal connection with God, and they write great music.
So, that distant has stopped me from thinking of a loving God.

3. What's the problem with saying a loving God who could prevent evil
singlehandedly would choose instead to suffer with us?
Think about it. Would a mother stand by and let her child get bit by a dog so she could instead suffer with her child? no.
Yes, there are somethings that we do not intervene in with our children, but, we would always try to block evil or horrendous items. how many parents haven't said, upon the death of their child , "i wish it was me".
So, I can only presume that God can't prevent, for if the nature of God is love and God could prevent evil, then God would.


4. How does thinking about Jesus' love help us to believe God is loving?
Jesus acted out that love, and yet, he died, crucified.
If Jesus is the presence, then his time with the woman at the well, the outcasts, and the average every day joe teach us about how to be. He showed love, when sometimes that was the only thing required -- the demonstration that someone is lovable.

5. When have you felt God's love and what sparked that feeling?
I shared in a previous post a couple of times when I have felt that sense of unconditional awe of this world I do struggle with the understanding of God. Being out in the midst of nature, alone, just me and the sky and the water.

6. What obstacles hinder us from feeling God's love?
Noise, distraction, busy-ness


7. Which of the 6 practices mentioned near the chapter's end do you want or need?

    • Ministry of Human Presence
    • I went to therapists twice: once when dealing with the grief of our losses, and once when dealing with the frustration of parenting a teenager.
    • I feel that at times, wondercafe2 fills this roll on small items, and even larger...talking out the loss of a parent, or a cat, reading others posts and reflecting on one's own life.
    • A Community of Care
    • I realized as I read this chapter, that I have found this in the church that I am attending, and I am thankful
    • I, like @Mendalla , find that wondercafe2 can offer that community of care
    • Mindfulness, Meditation, and Prayer
    • A gap in my life, other than Sunday mornings.

    • Experiences in Nature
    • I was reminded when i was at five Oaks, the importance of being outside. For me, it includes outside in service.
    • I plan to introduce walking outside into my life when the snow melts. This will likely be done alone, and could give me both mindfulness and experiences in nature!
    • Creative Arts
    • Music , probably should turn the tv off more, and the music on more.
    • The Love of a Child
    • I give thanks for my boys, and for my new wee one, for my sister, and for my spouse.
    • I am taking an appreciative inquiry book study, and wonder how to share with my youngest more how much he means to me.
    • Interestingly, the move to the new house has improved communication with my spouse, and helped to refind those moments of "aaah, yes, that is why i married you". It is good.

 
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I have been reading the book, have already gone through chapter 1 and now I'm reading chapter 2.
I'm not ready to post my impressions, though, as I'm going through a faith crisis. This book is too shaking.
 
I don't think I said this upthread yet, but I am not going to be doing this question by question. Too much like school. I have notes in Samsung Notes from my reading in Cuba and I will simply post those. They touch on thing that touched or interested me rather than following the questions in a rigid way.
 
GiancarloZ said:
I have been reading the book, have already gone through chapter 1 and now I'm reading chapter 2.
I'm not ready to post my impressions, though, as I'm going through a faith crisis. This book is too shaking.
Click to expand...

I shall be interested to hear more when you are ready to share. The idea of God Oord presents shook up my faith 31 or so years ago so it's kind of old hat for me, now.
 
1. No need to do question by question. No need to answer all questions. in a book study in person, with quite folks, they can help get the conversation going. It can also cause people to approach different areas.
2. No need to do responses chapter by chapter. I relish reflections on previous chapters, as I have had more time to ponder them, so would love to read them. I appreciate reflections on future chapters as they give me food to think about when I hit them..Use spoiler alert if you feel it is something overly startling
3. I will be attentive if we totally avoid sections of the book, ie no one responds to chapter x. Somehow, i don't see that occurring in this group.
 
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@GiancarloZ -- i am hoping it is shaking you in a good way, not a bad way. Remember, too, that this is one author's interpretation. I hope that you will throw those thoughts out there.

I think each person's faith story is different. I appreciate your honesty regarding how this book is impacting you.
As mendalla said, there are those on this site, for whom it is not new, and they agree. There are also those on this site, for whom it is not new, and they don't agree.
 
Thought I will give my history with process theology since it has bearing on how I approach Oord. Basically, in the 3rd year of my BA (Classics major but in a liberal arts program so lots of leeway, and even requirement, to study outside my major) I took a course on Science and Religion from St. Paul's College at the University of Waterloo which is, of course, a UCCan affiliate college. I keep forgetting the prof's name, just remember he was quite calm, patient, and knowledgeable and was missing a finger or part thereof.

The text for the course was by Ian Barbour and settled on process as the approach for dealing with the problem of reconciling the idea of God as Creator with the scientific understanding of the universe, much as Oord settles on it as the approach for dealing with the problem of evil/suffering. I forget the exact title but it was something simple like Science & Religion. I had also encountered the concept of panentheism, the technical name for the view of God most process theologians accept/espouse, in an earlier RS course and was already interested in the concept. So, I was basically a panentheist with a lean to process for the last part of my time as a Christian.

However, I eventually found less and less reason to believe in a God capable of loving and "luring" creation as process presented, so eventually slid into something more properly called pantheism (essentially seeing the universe itself as the source of our existence and of wonder and beauty, but without any kind of transcendent personality or capability to "Love") and kind of abandoned process until I joined the original WC.

There I began interacting with George Hermanson (aka Panentheism), who revived my interest in it to some degree (George knew my grandfather as far back as the sixties and seemed a bit disappointed that he was never able to get Grandad interested in process). I read some essays and other work by various process people and, yes, started listening to episodes of Homebrewed Christianity that dealt directly with process theology.

Back to chapter 2 in a way:

Right now, I'm kind of at sea. I am still interested in process intellectually but, like Oord's friend Amy, I wrestle with really "feeling" that sense of God as an empathetic presence. I still don't see a personal God out there, basically. For instance, while I am awed by studying nature and being out in it (I was blown away by my first time in a bat cave while in Cuba last week), I don't link that with a personal God that would be capable of love and empathy, just with a universe that is the source of my being, and is vast and awesome and fascinates me to no end. Similarly with creative arts. They give me a real sense of awe at the power of the human imagination, but I don't emotionally that to a personal God.
 
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Re Chapter 2- God feels our pain...........
In a sense this is the chapter that lured me to Process Theology.
When my husband was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I had no illusions about the prognosis. By then I had already lost a sister to motor neurone disease. Terminal means terminal.......

Clearly, the God of love wasn't in control of the situation. (I don't believe in miracles -just suppose God had performed a miracle and saved the life of my husband - why not the others in the leukaemia ward with the same prognosis?)

But, here's the thing. My husband needed my emotional support to come to terms, as much as he was able, with the horrendous treatment and final outcome.

With my mental health issues, both my husband and I didn't think I was strong enough to be the support he needed.
"You'll end up back in hospital" was how he put it.

What to do? Medicine and science couldn't help - a prayer was the only thing I could think to do.
I said, "God, I understand that terminal means terminal, but you know more than anyone how much this man has done for me. Now he needs my support -I have to be the strong one - and I don't think I can on my own. If you support me until he dies -you can then bugger off and help someone else who needs your support."
I felt this warmth pass slowly through my body - and somehow I knew I would manage.
I don't pretend to understand what happened - just that it did.

The strange thing is, that God didn't "bugger off", but has been in support ever since. I now think that God is compassionate and will support all who ask for it. God hasn't a body, as Oord states, but supports us through other people, things we 'happen" to read, etc. - "nudges", as Process theologians term them.

If you use reason - as opposed to literal Biblical quotations - Process Theology is the only one that seems to make sense if you believe in a God of unconditional love.

But, here's the thing, even if you can't believe in it as a faith, it is an excellent philosophy for the way to live out your life. God works for the common good - His Kingdom if you like - and what could be a better endeavour than that? And, on an individual basis, God works -through nudges - to make us as loving and compassionate as we can be. Put simply, God loves me, and he loves you.

Whether it's a faith, or a philosophy, it works for me . Life is short, why not choose to live fully?
 
Pinga said:
Chapter 2 questions are:

1. Why do you think some people believe God is unaffected and unemotional?
2. How have bad views of God led you away from affirming God's loving empathy?
3. What's the problem with saying a loving God who could prevent evil singlehandedly would choose instead to suffer with us?
4. How does thinking about Jesus' love help us to believe God is loving?
5. When have you felt God's love and what sparked that feeling?
6. What's obstacles hinder us from feeling God's love?
7. Which of the 6 practices mentioned near the chapter's end do you want or need?
Click to expand...

1. Some people may think God is unaffected or unemotional because their picture of perfection does not included emotion. God is perfect; back in their minds means God is all-powerful. Nothing affects God.
2. Sometimes I felt that somehow I was letting God down by getting discouraged or depressed or having bad luck. If somehow I could measure up to what God expected of me, or I expected of myself, things would be better for me and for those I cared about.
3.
If God could prevent evil but instead choose to suffer with us, he is either evil or stupid and definitely not loving. I believe in a loving God.
4. Jesus was God incarnate – God in the flesh. While I believe that during his life on earth Jesus was fully human, the Spirit of God dwelt within him and shone through him. When people saw Jesus love for one another they realize that God loved us as Jesus did.
5. I have felt God's love when I felt overwhelming and often unexpected love and kindness from other people. I also have felt God's love in the love I feel for others – the love I feel for my children and grandchildren. If God loves me as I love my children, it is enough.
6. Things that hinder us from feeling God's love might include feeling unworthy and therefore rejecting God's love, being too busy, surrounding ourselves with negative negativity, focusing on the problem rather than the solution, not being open to the signs of love that surrounds us.
7. I think I pretty much covered the answer to this one in my reflections while I was reading the chapter.
 
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Please Pinga (or anyone else), feel free to edit my post for clarity. And to delete my first post which is repeated in the second. I'm blaming that on the Dragon.
 
Speaking a bit to maybe the last three questions, I think the main barrier to me feeling God's loving empathy is my skepticism. Some of that may be fed by my evolution out of the Christian worldview, some of it is my rationalism. There are things that some people cite as their "proof" or "evidence" of a loving God that I just don't see that way. Some of the 6 ways are in there. Caring communities and human presence are just that. I don't see God there, just the positive side of our humanity. Nature and arts are beautiful and wonderful, but the former is as wonderful seen as the product of 14.5 billion years of deep history as it is seen as the creation of "God" and the latter is very much part of my love and appreciation for the human imagination. I don't credit God for human creativity, including my own, just being a human with the right set of faculties, interests, and skills.

So I ask the question, "Where is God?" and I don't find that Oord answers that question for me any better than anyone else has. Chansen's right. I'm really an atheist with a spiritual leaning. I haven't rejected God (at least not the kind of God Oord talks about) outright as some do, but I just don't see anything resembling a "God" in my life. I love the basic idea of a caring, empathetic God who works with us rather than being "in control", but I also love the ideas of starships and dragons (the mythical creature, not the voice recognition software :nerd:) and no one is talking about those as being real.
 
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Oh, one thing about the 6 ways that kind of bugged me, why did he focus the one about creatives arts on visual media? To compound things, in his list of artists later in the chapter, he does actually list some writers. However, the actual wording of the way is "Visual Art, Music, and Movies". I have been stirred by reading books and such as often, or more often, than by visual media. Poetry in particular, but other writing as well. Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive since I'm a writer myself, but it seems like he thinks that God's presence is more likely to be felt in the visual media and I don't get why that is.
 
I am not sure if I can even begin to articulate.

I have mentioned before, but, I would have described myself as an atheist in my late teens and early 20's, and then shifted to agnostic.
So, for me, if i think of God as love, and that we can see love through the work of others, and ourselves, then that works.
When we connect with a deeper love, then the choices come out stronger for me. Being in church community reminds me of God, and the desire for good. It challenges me.
I am less on the requirement for a defensible position the more that I age. I can't explain love, or if I could, I am not sure that I would want to. Would speaking of the mechanics of love and relationship help or hinder.
So, I can say that I find God in the work of a church that is true to self. I can find God in relationships where I know the other person has the same intents of God or good relationship.
 
I'm overdue in opening up for chapter 3 (we've had chapter 2 open for 11 days), so, I offer up chapter 3.
I hope people will continue to respond on all parts of the book, not cutting off any, and I knwo the chapters weave and open up reflections on previous chapters.
If you do include stuff from future chapters maybe mention that you are, so people can skip if they like.
 
Pinga said:
@Mendalla, re the visual, i wonder if it is because it has less of the rational thought which is engaged with reading,
Click to expand...

Perhaps, in which case I have to say he's wrong. Poetry is one of the most powerful emotional media that I know of. I'd put it ahead of some visual media, really. I would have put it at "Creative Arts", not limited it to visual ones. And, again, why does he list Dostoevsky, O'Connor, and Angelou, all of whom are writers?
 
Ch. 3, Question 3, "Why might people feel inclined to add, 'If it's your will,' when praying for healing?

I've never liked the idea that OUR prayers could really change GOD'S mind. Even in my more evangelical youth, that just seemed to give humans too much power. I do remember being disturbed somewhat, when a good ol' evangelist, using the King Jimmy, cited Isaiah 45:11, told us we could command God. The verse, as I recall, read in part, '...concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.' I found myself greatly relieved for some reason, when I read the verse in context in a modern translation, and found it was a rhetorical question.
When I pray for healing, I usually ask for God's especial presence on this suffering person (and their family, if applicable) during this time of crisis. I tend not to ask for specific outcomes, because I think that too often that can give leeway to false hope. (It may be also that if I pray for this person to get well, and this person doesn't get well, somehow it's MY fault...)

So far as the book as a whole, I find myself agreeing with Oord quite often; sometimes the ideas are something that I've always sensed, but Oord gives them words.
 
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