God Can't by Thomas Jay Oord - Introduction, Chapters 1-4

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Empathy does not mean pity.
Empathy is not sympathy or feeling sorry for the person. Compassion may be a better word.
To understand this in my own life I think of a person in my bowling league – he tells me that she feels sorry that I have Parkinson's and she has taken it upon herself to encourage me. Although I have averages dropped from the mid-80s to 60, she tells me that I am doing 'good'. If I get a spare or strike (which rarely happens) she will rush from the other side of the room to congratulate me. I wondered why I resented her so much. But I realize she doesn't feel empathy with me; she pities me. Her high 80s average enables her to look down on me. Her congratulations feel more like she is consenting to me.
I know she means well. I should appreciate her as I appreciate the friend who will put their hand on my shoulder and say (you're having a bad day today aren't you?)
 
Slowly getting caught up on reading this thread, even though I've only read the introduction to the book so far. I like Oord's certainty about his theory. I am often a little tenuous in my thinking about God. When I read his certainty, I see that it makes sense of some of the things I believe: I've never blamed God for evil. I've never even asked that God get rid of it. I've asked God to help humankind make better choices, and show love and compassion for one another to help right some wrongs. Interestingly, I just read a book by Marianne Williamson (Everyday Grace) where she claims that we don't get miracles and wonders from God because we don't ask for them. I guess we become the "O ye of little faith". Of the two approaches, I think Oord's makes more sense to me, but Williamson's idea that God cares about all aspects of our lives fits it with the love that Oord presumes God to have for us.

Busy with church camp, and babysitting for the next 2 weeks. I might read in the wee hours of the morning, but might not get to share thoughts. Happy reading everyone, and I'll pop in when I can.
 
I read the book in Cuba and took notes. Will read the thread first to see where my thoughts fit in. In general looked it, even if it wasn't really that new or radical to me.
 
Pinga said:
reminded
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Seeler said:
Empathy does not mean pity.
Empathy is not sympathy or feeling sorry for the person. Compassion may be a better word.
To understand this in my own life I think of a person in my bowling league – he tells me that she feels sorry that I have Parkinson's and she has taken it upon herself to encourage me. Although I have averages dropped from the mid-80s to 60, she tells me that I am doing 'good'. If I get a spare or strike (which rarely happens) she will rush from the other side of the room to congratulate me. I wondered why I resented her so much. But I realize she doesn't feel empathy with me; she pities me. Her high 80s average enables her to look down on me. Her congratulations feel more like she is consenting to me.
I know she means well. I should appreciate her as I appreciate the friend who will put their hand on my shoulder and say (you're having a bad day today aren't you?)
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I wanted to like this , but like doesn’t feel like the right word for it. I wish I could bookmark this contribution, so I can find it later.
I have a colleague who I will be working with closer soon and this is exactly the problem I am seeing coming. She is like the first person you are describing, especially with patients with mental health issues who are lacking motivation. She is pushy on one side to make them do things and over praising on the other. I am suspecting a family history of depression, that she hasn’t dealt with properly. You said it very well. ( I am not reading the book, but felt I had to lurk, after Jae made a nasty remark on his Korea thread.)
 
Okay, so it looks like the discussion is still mostly on chapter 1, starting to shade into chapter 2? I'll start my posting with those two, at least.

I have an interesting reflection on the s-f novel I read on vac (see the What Have You Been Reading? thread) that I'll share. It pertains to the idea of God's control so hits on a few chapters, but mostly on 1.

I also did a bit of analysis using the mess that is Haiti to think about Oord's ideas. He mostly uses more personal cases but I think it's important to see how this vision of God reflects in a situation like that.
 
i was drawn to the one story in Chapter 2, of the person who wanted her child to go to dance class (pg. 55). I've been dwelling on it, my first hearing of that story and response, without thinking too much about it was "wait, you are saying god intervened". As i pondered, though, I thought the following
a) God loves Marcy
b) Marcy believes God loves Marcy
c) Marcy loves her daughter
d) Marcy believes God loves her daughter
e) Marcy feels dance would help her daughter, but, she can't afford it
f) marcy takes action to send an email, which had an explanation and an ask
g) the recipient read the explanation, and the ask, and responded
h) Marcy's daughter received the scholarship

How many times do we, as humans, not ask. Or if we do ask, we don't explain the situation
How many times do we, as humans, say "i'm not worthy", or "no one will help me", or "I can do this on my own, i dont' need help", or some variance.

I wonder, as we read the story of God's love in chapter 2, are we opening the door to love ourselves enough and to love others as well.
 
as I read about those moments of feeling God, I think of both Five Oaks, and the various stages of the land and skies throughout the seasons and times of day.

I have wandered quietly, and I have laid on quilts watching the clouds go by, dreaming, and have had those moments of awe.

I have also sat on the rocks at Agawa Bay on the shores of Lake Superior and had a time with nature that still causes my heart to fill.

I am thankful for those times.
 
Chapter 2 questions are:

1. Why do you think some people believe God is unaffected and unemotional?
2. How have bad views of God led you away from affirming God's loving empathy?
3. What's the problem with saying a loving God who could prevent evil singlehandedly would choose instead to suffer with us?
4. How does thinking about Jesus' love help us to believe God is loving?
5. When have you felt God's love and what sparked that feeling?
6. What's obstacles hinder us from feeling God's love?
7. Which of the 6 practices mentioned near the chapter's end do you want or need?
 
As I read those ways of experiencing God and God's love, I could see ones that are really neglected in my present situation, and one that are really central to me.

The ones that are really gaps in my life right now are:
  • Ministry of Human Presence
  • A Community of Care
  • Mindfulness, Meditation, and Prayer
The first is perhaps less so, but really my circle is down to my wife and co-workers. I don't have any other close human ties around here.

The solution, I think, is to get back into a church or similar but finding one that's a fit, that will really deliver those for me becomes the battle.

The ones that are part of my experience and remain important and present, are the remaining three.
  • Experiences in Nature
  • Creative Arts
  • The Love of a Child
All of those are really how I have most directly experienced "God" over the years.
 
Slight addendum:

To some degree, this place provides the Community of Care piece, but a virtual community has gaps in how far it can do that. It is hard to hug someone online.

Much the same could be said of the cafe vis a vis human presence.
 
Pinga said:
i was drawn to the one story in Chapter 2, of the person who wanted her child to go to dance class (pg. 55). I've been dwelling on it, my first hearing of that story and response, without thinking too much about it was "wait, you are saying god intervened". As i pondered, though, I thought the following
a) God loves Marcy
b) Marcy believes God loves Marcy
c) Marcy loves her daughter
d) Marcy believes God loves her daughter
e) Marcy feels dance would help her daughter, but, she can't afford it
f) marcy takes action to send an email, which had an explanation and an ask
g) the recipient read the explanation, and the ask, and responded
h) Marcy's daughter received the scholarship

How many times do we, as humans, not ask. Or if we do ask, we don't explain the situation
How many times do we, as humans, say "i'm not worthy", or "no one will help me", or "I can do this on my own, i dont' need help", or some variance.

I wonder, as we read the story of God's love in chapter 2, are we opening the door to love ourselves enough and to love others as well.
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I am reminded of the year that our daughter had cancer. Granddaughter was 12 and she wanted to go to the church summer camp for a week. Seeler girl and granddaughter filled in the application and I looked it over. All the blanks were filled in and the form signed. I offered to mail it but before I did I added a little note at the bottom explaining situation that was putting financial and emotional strain on the family. When they arrived at the camp and Seeler girl prepared to pay the registration fee she was informed that it had been paid in full. Did God intervened? Did by asking have anything to do with it?
That fall they when to register for granddaughter's dance classes they were informed that she would only be charged half-price. Again someone was looking after the family during a difficult time.
We received a great deal of support that year. How much of it was the result of prayer and God intervening?
 
I may have told this story a long time ago, but back in university I recall a really rough day during Fall Semester exams. It was close to Christmas and snowing. I was stuck on campus for the full day due to my stupid exam schedule. Ate both lunch and dinner there. So, generally miserable. And then, some guy came along and handed me a candy cane. Wow, did that perk me up, even after realizing he was evangelizing (probably against the rules). God's presence? Perhaps.
 
Mendalla said:
I may have told this story a long time ago, but back in university I recall a really rough day during Fall Semester exams. It was close to Christmas and snowing. I was stuck on campus for the full day due to my stupid exam schedule. Ate both lunch and dinner there. So, generally miserable. And then, some guy came along and handed me a candy cane. Wow, did that perk me up, even after realizing he was evangelizing (probably against the rules). God's presence? Perhaps.
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The god of peppermint ... and then semantically ... did you know that mints are loaded with materials rich in potential to raise steroids through metabolism? Its complex ...
 
Moving on through chapter 2 (I wish I had bought a real book instead of Kindle on my laptop.)



Sometimes it is difficult to feel God's love. Oord suggests some ways to feel God's presence. T^hey remind me of Marcus Borg's 'thin places' that I heard about twenty years ago. But they still apply today.

The ministry of presence - of being there in person when someone is suffering
To this I would add the ministry of touch - a hug or simply a touch of the hand to remind them (and us) that we are not alone.

A community of care

Meditation and prayer - I have tried meditation at retreats I've attended. It doesn't seem to be for me. If I sit without movement or conscious thought for ten minutes, I fall asleep. Controlled breathing leaves me hyperventalating. I do pray as I go about my day - short prayers, like Wow! Help me! 'Thanks' I also consider service to others a form of prayer.

Experiences in nature. When I commune with nature I comune with God. I liked Oord's explanation of his speaking in tongue with coyotes.
Ihave conversed with crows.

Art, music, movies - all can bring us closer to God.

Love for children - there are no words to express my love for my children and grandchildren. Awesome is my best try. I am overcome with awe at my love for them. God'ss love in relationship.
 
Seeler said:
How much of it was the result of prayer and God intervening?
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Which, the chansens of the world will point out, is the problem with any concept of God, even this one. You can't test or quantify it, therefore you cannot answer this question. God did it all is as valid an answer as God did none of it because it all comes down to what each person believes about God.
 
Mendalla said:
Which, the chansens of the world will point out, is the problem with any concept of God, even this one. You can't test or quantify it, therefore you cannot answer this question. God did it all is as valid an answer as God did none of it because it all comes down to what each person believes about God.
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Don't worry - our resident atheist took the opportunity to let me know that I should be giving credit to the medical staff and science rather than to an imaginary 'god'. I looked back over my posts that time and found that I often mentioned the excellent care Seelergirl received from her nurses and doctors,and tech people and my appreciation of Medicare. I think Oord would agree with mt thinking that God worked through scientists and medicalpeople to provide care, and tomove people to give practical and emotional support. God works through people.
 
Seeler said:
Don't worry - our resident atheist took the opportunity to let me know that I should be giving credit to the medical staff and science rather than to an imaginary 'god'. I looked back over my posts that time and found that I often mentioned the excellent care Seelergirl received from her nurses and doctors,and tech people and my appreciation of Medicare. I think Oord would agree with mt thinking that God worked through scientists and medicalpeople to provide care, and tomove people to give practical and emotional support. God works through people.
Click to expand...

What our resident atheist doesn't see is that God very often works through medical staffs and science.
 
Jae said:
What our resident atheist doesn't see is that God very often works through medical staffs and science.
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Jae. You have made it clear that you aren't reading the book. Participation in this thread is contingent upon reading the book. Please abide by the guidelines of the community.
 
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