Gender roles in the church in the non-binary world

[Mendalla]

Many churches think in black and white and so therefore would not accept a trans person. That would force them to accept "grey", or purple, or whatever colour that falls outside of black and white. I like John's explanation above.

I have a friend who is transitioning now. It's made me think more about this and struggle with some of the issues. It's all too easy to say we accept something until we are faced with it. He moved away so my main contact now is through FB. I have no trouble considering him "he" in print. When I ran into mutual friends recently and we were talking about his latest exploits, i found it hard to call him "he". I will adjust. He's far happier now and that is my wish for him.

I think personal experience and listening to those who are on that journey is very important. Even knowing Rita online has given me a whole hell of a lot of knowledge and perspective on transitioning and being trans that I would never get otherwise. I follow some trans people on Twitter now, too, which has also added some more perspective.

 

[Waterfall]

Then there's Camille Paglia, and her opinion that transgender mania is a sign of cultural collapse:

Paglia: Transgender & Civilization’s Decline

 

[Mendalla]

Then there's Camille Paglia, and her opinion that transgender mania is a sign of cultural collapse:

Paglia: Transgender & Civilization’s Decline

Paglia is a wonderful human being at times in that she keeps pushing boundaries and forcing people to think. She's also a bit of a s**t who seems to do that boundary-pushing just to push people's buttons at times. Her critiques of feminism helped hone some of the thinking but also came across as incredibly mean-spirited at times. I've heard her discussing this one and this is pretty solidly in the latter category.

 

[Waterfall]

Paglia is a wonderful human being at times in that she keeps pushing boundaries and forcing people to think. She's also a bit of a s**t who seems to do that boundary-pushing just to push people's buttons at times. Her critiques of feminism helped hone some of the thinking but also came across as incredibly mean-spirited at times. I've heard her discussing this one and this is pretty solidly in the latter category.

Yeah she seems to be pushing a few buttons while becoming the one to quote for conservative thinkers, yet she does have some (not all) interesting points, some compare what she is saying with Plato's Republic when he speaks of the nature of different political systems.

 

[revsdd]

Then there's Camille Paglia, and her opinion that transgender mania is a sign of cultural collapse:

Paglia: Transgender & Civilization’s Decline

I've heard others say similar things. Usually the primary example cited is the collapse of the Roman Empire - which was, by the time its decline became precipitous, very tolerant toward what we might call alternative sexual expression. But that, of course, is a false argument. Rome declined largely because it was an over-extended Empire that couldn't defend its boundaries anymore and was rife with corruption. In the same way, some Americans see the decline of the American empire as related to homosexuality, transexuality, etc., when in fact the causes are much the same as Rome's - an overextended and increasingly corrupt empire.

On the general subject of "mania" - one might argue that any cultural "mania" is a sign of cultural collapse, because cultural manias are a means of averting one's eyes from what's really happening. Rome entertained its citizens with gladiatorial battles to keep their thoughts off reality; America has football. And Trump - who's a master at changing the subject from what really matters. One ridiculous twitter tirade and nobody cares about the real issues.

 

[Waterfall]

I've heard others say similar things. Usually the primary example cited is the collapse of the Roman Empire - which was, by the time its decline became precipitous, very tolerant toward what we might call alternative sexual expression. But that, of course, is a false argument. Rome declined largely because it was an over-extended Empire that couldn't defend its boundaries anymore and was rife with corruption. In the same way, some Americans see the decline of the American empire as related to homosexuality, transexuality, etc., when in fact the causes are much the same as Rome's - an overextended and increasingly corrupt empire.

On the general subject of "mania" - one might argue that any cultural "mania" is a sign of cultural collapse, because cultural manias are a means of averting one's eyes from what's really happening. Rome entertained its citizens with gladiatorial battles to keep their thoughts off reality; America has football. And Trump - who's a master at changing the subject from what really matters. One ridiculous twitter tirade and nobody cares about the real issues.

I don't think Paglia is bashing transgenders as a cause of collapse as much as she is pointing to it as a symptom of collapse. Similar to some of the "cracks" we are seeing in the LGBT movement.

 

[revsdd]

I don't think Paglia is bashing transgenders as a cause of collapse as much as she is pointing to it as a symptom of collapse. Similar to some of the "cracks" we are seeing in the LGBT movement.

If you look at my post I didn't say "caused by" (although I have indeed heard some Americans say that - the decline of America is a result of God's judgement on the acceptance of homosexuality, etc.) What I said was "related to." Whether as cause or symptom that's not an uncommon perception.

 

[Waterfall]

Okay got it.

 

[Waterfall]

I, personally, would welcome trans and qenderqueer leaders in a church that I was in and would hope that they would be treated as any other member of the church from that standpoint. I see no reason why they shouldn't be in pulpits or board chairs.

I don't either as long as they truly qualify and it's not just a pat on our own backs to say we're open to something that's totally unrelated. I would think this would take great introspection as well as discernment. It's probably similar to women breaking into ministry, you almost have to be twice as good to get past the stigma.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I, personally, would welcome trans and qenderqueer leaders in a church that I was in and would hope that they would be treated as any other member of the church from that standpoint. I see no reason why they shouldn't be in pulpits or board chairs.

Well, the UCCan has been something of a model in that regard. The Rev Jordan Cantwell is hardly a strongly gender binary figure.

 

[Mendalla]

Well, the UCCan has been something of a model in that regard. The Rev Jordan Cantwell is hardly a strongly gender binary figure.

The fact that you followed Gary with Jordan really speaks volumes of where most of you are at. There are, however, still pockets of resistance even in your ranks so you can't rest on your laurels yet.

 

[GordW]

The fact that you followed Gary with Jordan really speaks volumes of where most of you are at. There are, however, still pockets of resistance even in your ranks so you can't rest on your laurels yet.

True progress is when we don't need to say anything about the moderator's gender identity or orientation as a way to pat ourselves on the back...

 

[Delightful Life]

Many churches think in black and white and so therefore would not accept a trans person. That would force them to accept "grey", or purple, or whatever colour that falls outside of black and white. I like John's explanation above..

Its also very difficult and unfair to expect of the nongenderfucked to keep track of all the different sexual idetities that have and are proliferating

 

[Delightful Life]

Then there's Camille Paglia, and her opinion that transgender mania is a sign of cultural collapse:

Paglia: Transgender & Civilization’s Decline

Stable societies are mostly Conservative...human beings in our pasg have been very smart...we f*** with those discoveries at our peril...

We Liberals are necessarily a minority in any civilization. We check for stagnation and help those who will always fall in the cracks

Psychology and value and meaning can be as rock solid factual as the force of gravity...even tho we live in a castrated culture where Jesus et al was "just" wise philosopher...

LA DI DAH!!!

 

[Delightful Life]

Plus before people get on the Camille drrrrr phobic and hates RitaTG and me and SG etc froth wheeze

Take a look at my post on the Trump thread
Musings from a Transgender Democrat.

 

[mgagnonlv]

Its also very difficult and unfair to expect of the nongenderfucked to keep track of all the different sexual identities that have and are proliferating

But is it even necessary? I see two types of segregation.

1. Institutionalized segregation. For instance, the Roman-Catholic Church only allows celibate males to become priests (with very very few exceptions). That's a case where, to be inclusive, the actual rules would need to be updated. When there is the desire to do so, it's very easy to do: change the rules!

2. Cultural segregation. This is the most prevalent type and the most complicated to outdo. One of the ways, I think, is to question why we would need to have gender-based groups in a Church (or any other institution). Sometimes, it's because "men's group" cover different subjects than "women's group". They may offer different social activities or even study different parts of the Bible or ask different questions... which is both good and bad.

I think an efficient way to go around gender-based groups is to create interest-based groups. For instance, a card-playing group, a crafts group, one that discusses organized sports, finances, etc. There may be more women than men interested in the crafts group (for example), but a crafts group doesn't exclude men or gender-f***ed people who are interested in the matter.

As for Bible groups that study the Bible differently according to their gender (I've seen it!), then I think it's bad because it tends to comfort each group into typical stereotypes. I think we need to promote assertiveness amongst females and gentleness amongst males.

 

[Northwind]

@Inannawhimsey your thoughts are interesting. I think you're right that people are naturally conservative. We know people don't want to change unless they're forced to somehow. So it makes sense that the conservative "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality goes with that. Yet there are those who like to push the boundaries so we can enjoy new things. Ideally there would be some kind of nice balance. That darned pendulum though .......

I agree with @mgagnonlv why do we need to keep track of all the different sexual or other identities? What if we just accepted people as they wish to be described or identified. No need to keep track. I know Inanna as Inanna and as the name you used in 2011. If I knew you better, I'd learn what interests you enjoy and such. I could probably make some educated guesses based on how I know you now.

I like the idea of just forming interest groups instead of groups according to gender.

 

[Luce NDs]

If we were all genre phoqah'd and loved all others ... would the birth rate drop and population collapse?

Of course some understanding of the spirit of genre is prerequisite ... and one is thus essentially phoqah'due begin with ... and thus the myth goes on ... as we don't understand due to the intrusion of great emotional attributes arriving on the scene as god's ... all is sucked into the nothing Zoan ... a kind of eliminated circle ... Pi'sh ole a' snown ....

 

[mgagnonlv]

Would the birth rate drop?

It has already! Compare birth rate of 100 years ago (5-6 kids per family) with the current one of 1,7 or 1,8 kid per woman. We have much better health conditions (less infant deaths) and contraception, but also an environment where children are not as welcomed as they were 100 years ago. Children used to be free labour on the farm; now we aren't allowed to send them to the park by themselves.

Maybe the long term solution is to identify those people who are good with children (who selects them) and make them professional parents. These people should be chosen according to their ability, not their sex or gender. In a word, that's an extension of daycare as we know it.

And there is also the other point of view that the solution would actually be better immigration policies: we should move people away from overpopulated areas of the world and make them Canadians: a sort of "don't breed new humans, but use the ones we have elsewhere on earth.

 

[Luce NDs]

Would the birth rate drop?

It has already! Compare birth rate of 100 years ago (5-6 kids per family) with the current one of 1,7 or 1,8 kid per woman. We have much better health conditions (less infant deaths) and contraception, but also an environment where children are not as welcomed as they were 100 years ago. Children used to be free labour on the farm; now we aren't allowed to send them to the park by themselves.

Maybe the long term solution is to identify those people who are good with children (who selects them) and make them professional parents. These people should be chosen according to their ability, not their sex or gender. In a word, that's an extension of daycare as we know it.

And there is also the other point of view that the solution would actually be better immigration policies: we should move people away from overpopulated areas of the world and make them Canadians: a sort of "don't breed new humans, but use the ones we have elsewhere on earth.

I thought so too ... but couldn't say .. as I've been impressed with the powers that common phoqah aren't to think freely without oily gar-chis 't direction ... the slippery slope of Sisyphus? Kind 've like an olive M 'elle ...

Oil and w'ata? Necessary for the construct of dialectic brain 'd issue ... a mystery to mortals ... yet doped silica? That's different ... perhaps mortals thoughts are stored there ... inde pth ... scare the crap out of the foundational opinions!