Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Justme]

Interesting article in the Toronto Star this weekend on the political arena around this ruling - makes me sad that our democracy has become so focussed on keeping people in power and less on doing what's good for Canadians. That's always been important but it seems to be more of the goal than in the past.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ml?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmio - can you give us your working definition of 'disability'?

You seem to be ssaying that many of us are misusing the word.

I did seeler, about 50 times. Including in my last few posts.
Disability is the disabling barriers in society (visible and invisible - environmental and attitudinal, socioeconomic, systemic) that a person with a permanent or chronic impairment comes up against that limits them from full participation or voice as equals in society. Disability is the interaction between the impairment and disabling barriers. Disability is in society not in the person. If a person has an impairment but faces no barriers they do not have a disability, they have an impairment.

 

[Lastpointe]

I think it time to put this to bed.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think it time to put this to bed.

Seeler asked me a question. If you don't want to participate in this topic anymore, nobody's making you visit this thread.

 

[Delightful Life]

just remember folks,

these are words

they have no meaning in and of themselves

they require a reader and time for that meaning to happen

you, dear reader, are therefore involved and any feelings and thoughts you have come from you and not unbidden from some outside source and, thus, are the only one who is responsible for them

if you write here or read here, it is because you choose to do so

and that includes if you think it is a waste or not a waste or the best time of your life

 

[Delightful Life]

I did seeler, about 50 times. Including in my last few posts.
Disability is the disabling barriers in society (visible and invisible - environmental and attitudinal, socioeconomic, systemic) that a person with a permanent or chronic impairment comes up against that limits them from full participation or voice as equals in society. Disability is the interaction between the impairment and disabling barriers. Disability is in society not in the person. If a person has an impairment but faces no barriers they do not have a disability, they have an impairment.

After doing some research -- thanks Kimmio, I larned a new thing -- still researching :3

So do you think that someone to be suffering enough from CP (from the actual condition itself & not the social-discrimination) and still being legally competent to opt for assisted suicide should be legally allowed?

 

[Carolla]

Identity is a concept of our age that should be used very carefully. All types of identities, ethnic, national, religious, sexual or whatever else, can become your prison after a while. The identity that you stand up for can enslave you and close you to the rest of the world. - Murathan Mungan

Powerful quote - thanks Layton November.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I can't actually see them wanting to themselves, no. I mean, you'd realky have to ask - is it because one is comparing their ability level to that of others, is there really nothing to manage the physical pain? Is it really that bad? Is their nothing that can be done to lessen whatever it is causing them to want to die - including socioeconomic circumstances? But if they did feel that way with no pressure from their care givers or support systems hinting that their care might be a burden and/ or expense...then that is how they feel. I would, first of all hope that is a rare exception (I believe Tracy Latimer had a life worth living and I would bet that she felt that way too) and I hope that they would be able to do everything possible, including reasons not yet considered, to find out that their life was worth living, and assisted death would be so rare as to be statistically hardly even a blip on the radar - so rare as to be almost a non-existant scenario.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Powerful quote - thanks Layton November.

Well I have been the one who said I don't like labels being stuck on me as a PWD - and I generally just think of me as "Kimmio" - not CP, depression, anxiety, disability. Those are not my names. I am not obsessed with those things in my daily life unless the barriers I am presented with force me to be.

But it becomes important to recognize when the person you embody
is threatened, as are other people when a label is misused.

So, not a fitting quote from Layton November (or the guru he identified) in this circumstance.

 

[Delightful Life]

"...what we see, hear, feel, speak about or infer, is never it, but only our human abstraction about it'"
--Alfred Korzybski

"...A map is not the territory it represents, but, if correct, it has a similar structure to the territory, which accounts for its usefulness..."
--Alfred Korzybski

"The order in which perception should take place is stunted in [the common] Aristotelian Thinking, leading to some mental illness. The natural order is to see, pause, feel, sense, intuit, visualize – only later should the mind verbalise. An Aristotelian thinker sees an object and immediately verbalises by noticing some similarity with something else or recognising it..."
--Ted Falconar, Creative Intelligence and Self-Liberation. Korzybski, Non-Aristotelian Thinking and Eastern Realization

"...nothing is like anything else...In other words, nothing is identical to anything else...So all objects and events are unique, but verbalising thinkers in looking at reality categorise and identify what they see; to do this they exaggerate similarities and ignore differences and in this manner, instead of looking for uniqueness, they force objects into the categories of their minds..."
--Ted Falconar, Creative Intelligence and Self-Liberation. Korzybski, Non-Aristotelian Thinking and Eastern Realization

"Nearly all arguments are caused by people confusing different levels of abstraction or by supposing two objects to be the same when they are different..."
-- Ted Falconar, Creative Intelligence and Self-Liberation. Korzybski, Non-Aristotelian Thinking and Eastern Realization

all these conflicts over races & genders & religions & politics (eek!) & hand cream...

bears & lions & apes OH MY!

 

[Delightful Life]

I can't actually see them wanting to themselves, no. I mean, you'd realky have to ask - is it because one is comparing their ability level to that of others, is there really nothing to manage the physical pain? Is it really that bad? Is their nothing that can be done to lessen whatever it is causing them to want to die - including socioeconomic circumstances? But if they did feel that way with no pressure from their care givers or support systems hinting that their care might be a burden and/ or expense...then that is how they feel. I would, first of all hope that is a rare exception (I believe Tracy Latimer had a life worth living and I would bet that she felt that way too) and I hope that they would be able to do everything possible, including reasons not yet considered, to find out that their life was worth living, and assisted death would be so rare as to be statistically hardly even a blip on the radar - so rare as to be almost a non-existant scenario.

I thank you from my heartsoul for you caring & considered answer :3

 

[RitaTG]

Identity is a concept of our age that should be used very carefully. All types of identities, ethnic, national, religious, sexual or whatever else, can become your prison after a while. The identity that you stand up for can enslave you and close you to the rest of the world. - Murathan Mungan

A very powerful quote indeed.....
I would also add that claiming and standing up for one's identity can be a powerful freeing experience that opens one up to flourishing.

 

[redhead]

Here is a theory, based on the notion of free will. If one believes in Creation, and God, and the gift of free will.... it follows that all who are created, as individuals, make choices, live by free will, and may choose, without judgment, to end life when confronted with pain and suffering.

 

[Seeler]

I did seeler, about 50 times. Including in my last few posts.
Disability is the disabling barriers in society (visible and invisible - environmental and attitudinal, socioeconomic, systemic) that a person with a permanent or chronic impairment comes up against that limits them from full participation or voice as equals in society. Disability is the interaction between the impairment and disabling barriers. Disability is in society not in the person. If a person has an impairment but faces no barriers they do not have a disability, they have an impairment.

Thanks Kimmio. I suspected that we were working from different definitions.
I Googled and found several differently worded definitions but none seemed to agree with this one.

This probably most closely reflects my understanding of the word:
Disability is the consequence of an impairment that may be physical, cognitive, mental, sensory, emotional, developmental, or some combination of these. A disability may be present from birth, or occur during a person's lifetime.

[FONT=Open Sans, sans-serif]Communication is only possible when people can agree on the meaning of the words they use. [/FONT]

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Thanks Kimmio. I suspected that we were working from different definitions.
I Googled and found several differently worded definitions but none seemed to agree with this one.

This probably most closely reflects my understanding of the word:
Disability is the consequence of an impairment that may be physical, cognitive, mental, sensory, emotional, developmental, or some combination of these. A disability may be present from birth, or occur during a person's lifetime.

[FONT=Open Sans, sans-serif]Communication is only possible when people can agree on the meaning of the words they use. [/FONT]

That's outdated and not the human rights definition which the UN and World Health Organization now recognize. I've been saying that all along.

 

[redhead]

Very simple: caring. Living the gerund is tough.

 

[Northwind]

Kimmio, you said you can't see someone who is disabled making the decision to die by themselves. I understand the concern that they might be making that decision based on a comparison or because they are concerned about the strain they are causing others. At the same time, it sounds like you are saying they are not to capable of making decisions for themselves. It sounds like you are saying they cannot be trusted to make their own decision. I hope I an misunderstanding you.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmio, you said you can't see someone who is disabled making the decision to die by themselves. I understand the concern that they might be making that decision based on a comparison or because they are concerned about the strain they are causing others. At the same time, it sounds like you are saying they are not to capable of making decisions for themselves. It sounds like you are saying they cannot be trusted to make their own decision. I hope I an misunderstanding you.

In suicide prevention you want to determine if there is a distortion in thinking coming from somewhere, and you always assume that there is, to save somebody's life, don't you? Why would that be any different for a person with a disability?

It's not that they are not capable of making decisions it's that suicidal people are coming from a place of pessimism about life. Yeah. I would want to change their minds. Especially if they are nowhere close to death with a terminal illness.

 

[Northwind]

I would never make any assumption that someone has distorted thinking. That is rather paternalistic and disrespectful in my opinion. I would want to explore their views and understand how they came to feel that way. Usually people have very good reasons for their beliefs. That is not to say that they are making the healthiest conclusions. Suicidal people often come from a place of hopelessness and have come to believe suicide is their best option. The fact that they are discussing it suggests they are not entirely convinced that this is their only option. It is not my place to change their minds. It is my place to sit with them, and hear them so they can find other options. If I thought I had the power to change people's minds, I'd be burned out in a heartbeat.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Of course you listen...but if someone wants to die and it is a suicide prevention person's job to save them from doing so...of course you ask questions to determine where their thinking is 'distorted'. Or...in otherwords, help them 'reframe' their outlook. Same thing, different word.