Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

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Disability doesn't define a person. It defines the degree to which a person experiences barriers in society. The 'disability' is in society.

It is important to remember that disability is one aspect of an individual that might contribute to their experience of barriers in society. Gender, sexual orientation, culture, religion, and so on are additional factors. Discrimination and stigma are also very complex constructs that are not reduced to disability exclusively.
 
It is important to remember that disability is one aspect of an individual that might contribute to their experience of barriers in society. Gender, sexual orientation, culture, religion, and so on are additional factors. Discrimination and stigma are also very complex constructs that are not reduced to disability exclusively.
I realize that. But in this thread we are talking about disability and this ruling didn't name gender or culture, etc. as reasons for suffering enough that one might be seeking assisted suicide. Thank goodness.
 
There are other models but they are not the best models...because...In the interest of human rights it's better to seperate the terms 'impairment' from 'disability' because disability recognizes the discriminatory factors of normative expectations in society. So as far as I and proponents of the social model are concerned that's where the other models fall short and that is why the UN and WHO have adopted the social model.

There isn't more to disability. There is impairment seperate from but related to disability.
Why is that the best way, when done so in exclusion, to define disability? Especially when the root and other definitions existed first?
 
No argument. But you seem quick to isolate any oppression a person with a disability lives with exclusively to their disability. Again, another example of your unwillingness to nuance your argument.
 
Why is that the best way, when done so in exclusion, to define disability? Especially when the root and other definitions existed first?
Because PWDs themselves came up with it based on collective experience of discrimination. "Nothing about us without us." the sentiment behind the social model rooted in disabilty rights activism. And they worked hard and continue to, to challenge perceptions.
 
I'll restate my questions for you @Kimmio

So, if a PWD goes down a certain path, let's say to earn a university degree, and is not successful is that because of oppression?

You said society needs to change. Does that mean PWD's are unable to succeed until society changes?

What do you say about "protective factors", disability and oppression?
 
I have an impairment. This impairment leads to disabilities. Some days I can't go for a 30 minute walk - that's not an impairment itself. That could be described as a disability, although it's not due to the social model.
 
Because PWDs themselves came up with it based on collective experience of discrimination. "Nothing about us without us." the sentiment behind the social model rooted in disabilty rights activism. And they worked hard and continue to, to challenge perceptions.
And they acutally decided that the model should be the only acceptable definition?
 
Kimmio's definitions are indeed the WHO definitions. However within academic circles the social model of disability is usually nuanced. That is, it is absolutely acknowledged that people with disabilities live with forms of oppression, barriers, and discrimination described by the social model. No argument. However it is further acknowledged that disabilities (you will note the move to the plural) are complex and diverse and cannot be universalized to a single experience articulated by a particular group. Multiple intersection exists that account for a person's experience of oppression and these can include the other factors (to name only a few) that I have listed above. Further, it is understood that the medical/social model dichotomy is often a starting point, but in academic circles that dichotomy is being explored as a spectrum where multiple other "models" inform a person's experience of disability. In other words Kimmio is saying disability is black vs. white, while I am saying that the experience of disabilities falls along this spectrum of grey.

Kimmio's preferred model favours people who are, comparatively speaking, people with disabilities who "look" like her, that is cognitively intact, verbal, literate, educated, among other qualities. While she cannot see it, her preferred model excludes, in many ways, the experiences of people who rely on their caregivers to interpret their experiences - people like my son who are profoundly intellectually and physically disabled, as well as non-verbal. She says she is avoiding that conversation to spare me. Realistically it is because her argument will rapidly disintegrate if she opens her discussion up to a broader understanding of disabilities.
 
DaisyJane, you raise a good point about the social-medical models being on a continuum rather than an either/or situation. I do not see how we can put people into a "disability" category. As you say there are many disabilities and many variables within each category. For instance, I have met Kimmio in person and know a little bit about her. I also know someone who has a very similar disability and who is likely a similar age. The two women likely have many similarities, i.e. gait or build, and also likely have many profound differences. If I saw them both walking down the street, I might be tempted to believe their experiences of life are the same and that they are in one group. I would be wrong if I made that assumption.
 
Your first question. It may or may not be about oppression. All PWDs experience systemic impression though because the 'norm' they have to keep up with is the able bodies norm. Some successfully do that but not without barriers. Statistically, more PWDs now have post secondary education. But, also statistically, drastically more PWDs are also not attached to the labour force than people without disabilities.

People with disabilities can overcome barriers to succeed but the question should be why should they have to overcome barriers at all? Why are there barriers?

As far as protective factors, the more one has available the better they are able to overcome hardship and mitigate the effects of oppression. But which protective factors do they have to employ to overcome barriers - and would they need to so much if the barriers weren't created by society in the first place?
 
Kimmio's definitions are indeed the WHO definitions. However within academic circles the social model of disability is usually nuanced. That is, it is absolutely acknowledged that people with disabilities live with forms of oppression, barriers, and discrimination described by the social model. No argument. However it is further acknowledged that disabilities (you will note the move to the plural) are complex and diverse and cannot be universalized to a single experience articulated by a particular group. Multiple intersection exists that account for a person's experience of oppression and these can include the other factors (to name only a few) that I have listed above. Further, it is understood that the medical/social model dichotomy is often a starting point, but in academic circles that dichotomy is being explored as a spectrum where multiple other "models" inform a person's experience of disability. In other words Kimmio is saying disability is black vs. white, while I am saying that the experience of disabilities falls along this spectrum of grey.

Kimmio's preferred model favours people who are, comparatively speaking, people with disabilities who "look" like her, that is cognitively intact, verbal, literate, educated, among other qualities. While she cannot see it, her preferred model excludes, in many ways, the experiences of people who rely on their caregivers to interpret their experiences - people like my son who are profoundly intellectually and physically disabled, as well as non-verbal. She says she is avoiding that conversation to spare me. Realistically it is because her argument will rapidly disintegrate if she opens her discussion up to a broader understanding of disabilities.
Don't speak for me.
 
Kimmio's definitions are indeed the WHO definitions. However within academic circles the social model of disability is usually nuanced. That is, it is absolutely acknowledged that people with disabilities live with forms of oppression, barriers, and discrimination described by the social model. No argument. However it is further acknowledged that disabilities (you will note the move to the plural) are complex and diverse and cannot be universalized to a single experience articulated by a particular group. Multiple intersection exists that account for a person's experience of oppression and these can include the other factors (to name only a few) that I have listed above. Further, it is understood that the medical/social model dichotomy is often a starting point, but in academic circles that dichotomy is being explored as a spectrum where multiple other "models" inform a person's experience of disability. In other words Kimmio is saying disability is black vs. white, while I am saying that the experience of disabilities falls along this spectrum of grey.

Kimmio's preferred model favours people who are, comparatively speaking, people with disabilities who "look" like her, that is cognitively intact, verbal, literate, educated, among other qualities. While she cannot see it, her preferred model excludes, in many ways, the experiences of people who rely on their caregivers to interpret their experiences - people like my son who are profoundly intellectually and physically disabled, as well as non-verbal. She says she is avoiding that conversation to spare me. Realistically it is because her argument will rapidly disintegrate if she opens her discussion up to a broader understanding of disabilities.

I have spent time working in the disability rights community with people experiencing all manner of disabilities. The ones that make it possible for human rights for PWDs to exist. Educated, not so educated - it's very different from academia or from rehabilitation practitioner circles.
 
Why are there barriers? That is an excellent question. However we need to remember that, even for people with disabilities, the barriers they encounter may, or may not, be linked to their disability, or may be linked to a range of complex and interrelated factors. As well, the experience of discrimination is not universally owned by people with disabilities.

I realize I am now sounding like a broken record, by my point is that it is more complex and nuanced than you wish to make it. Disability is not a singular construct. Nor is oppression.
 
I have spent time working in the disability rights community with people experiencing all manner of disabilities. The ones that make it possible for human rights for PWDs to exist. Educated, not so educated - it's very different from academia or from rehabilitation practitioner circles.

No argument. As have I. I have spent years working with disability rights communities. I have been a founding member for a few. I am also a former regulated heath professional and I work in academia in the field of disability. I am also the primary caregiver of a profoundly disabled child. You are very quick to qualify and give priority to your "credentials" while dismissing mine.
 
Why are there barriers? That is an excellent question. However we need to remember that, even for people with disabilities, the barriers they encounter may, or may not, be linked to their disability, or may be linked to a range of complex and interrelated factors. As well, the experience of discrimination is not universally owned by people with disabilities.

I realize I am now sounding like a broken record, by my point is that it is more complex and nuanced than you wish to make it. Disability is not a singular construct. Nor is oppression.
But you can't, even when aknowledging that discrimination isn't universally owned by people with disabilities - of course not - but you have to aknowledge that people with disabilities overall, everywhere are poorer and less represented and more socially isolated than people without disabilities in our society regardless of other marginalized groups existing. They are the most marginalized by poverty and lack of opportunity or accommodation to difference.
 
No argument. As have I. I have spent years working with disability rights communities. I have been a founding member for a few. I am also a former regulated heath professional and I work in academia in the field of disability. I am also the primary caregiver of a profoundly disabled child. You are very quick to qualify and give priority to your "credentials" while dismissing mine.
I am not. One thing I do have is the experience of being an adult living with a disability. That might make you angry for me to say this...but my experience of different environments and perspectives as a PWD counts for more than my education ever did.
 
Of course they do. Again, no argument. But what you can't say is that your experiences count more than others' experiences or ideas. You also can't say that academic discourse, or education, is less important then the lived-experience. You've been spouting academic references all thread when you want to support your argument and ignoring it when it makes sense for you.

I am a huge advocate for the radical inclusion of the lived experiences of people with disabilities in academic circles and in all forms of research. However, what I have learned through this experience is that there are a range of experiences and voices. Disabilities are a very, very diverse experience and espousing one unifying "narrative" of disability is simply unhelpful.

No argument that the social model of disability is important and very relevant. It just isn't the unifying narrative of disability.
 
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