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Kimmio said:
Because it is the internationally recognized one that PWDs have fought for that's enshrined in human rights - it's not a la-dee-da to to each their own kind of thing this is important!
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La-dee-da??? Do you read what others post?
 
Yeah. I do. It was waterfall saying the medial model was holistic that got under my collar. DaisyJane doesn't think the social model addresses suffering of the individual. I disagree. It doesn't negate personal impairment. But it does say what disables people from being equals is society. That is what disables - the impairment still needs to be treated if a person is in pain. However, impairments don't need to all be 'fixed'. Society needs to fix it's attitudes.
 
Kimmio. There are hundreds of articles and books reviewing and critiquing the social model. Citing one does not prove any point whatsoever. There is a great deal of good to the social model. I won't argue with you at all regarding that. It just isn't exhaustive and just because the WHO cites the model doesn't make it correct or universally helpful.

Also, people with disabilities are part of the critique of the social model.

There is a great deal published about the various models of disability and the debate regarding the utility, relevance, and helpfulness of the various models is ongoing and extremely active. I read widely on the topic and know I have a great deal to learn about the complexity of the argument. Choosing websites that only support your argument and don't critically engage other ideas simply makes your argument appear narrow and superficial.
 
DaisyJane said:
Kimmio. There are hundreds of articles and books reviewing and critiquing the social model. Citing one does not prove any point whatsoever. There is a great deal of good to the social model. I won't argue with you at all regarding that. It just isn't exhaustive and just because the WHO cites the model doesn't make it correct or universally helpful.

Also, people with disabilities are part of the critique of the social model.

There is a great deal published about the various models of disability and the debate regarding the utility, relevance, and helpfulness of the various models is ongoing and extremely active. I read widely on the topic and know I have a great deal to learn about the complexity of the argument. Choosing websites that only support your argument and don't critically engage other ideas simply makes your argument appear narrow and superficial.
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DaisyJane I think we have to respect that the social model is the one people in Disability Studies prefer and it is the one that the WHO recognized because of it's focus on eliminating prejudice. That's what's crucial to PWDs. The others don't and that's what's wrong with them.
 
I have read arguments about the other models but they don't address the universal experience of discrimination.

And the two that exist most predominantly in society are the medical model and the social model - with the medical model being rejected by PWDs in asserting their rights as equals. The expert models and the rehabilitative models stem from the medical model.
 
@DaisyJane My parents did the best the could raising me with a disability. But they don't know more about MY suffering or challenges or dealing with prejudices than I do. My physios helped me to overcome to the best of my ability, some physical difficulties I was having, but they don't know more than me about the experience of inequality and social prejudice. My doctors treat me with medication for my symptoms but they don't know more than me about my daily life. Religious people have pitied me and looked upon me as a charity object, but they don't know more than me about what I need or who I am as a person.
People with disabilities can identify with me about all these things.
 
Kimmio said:
DaisyJane I think we have to respect that the social model is the one people in Disability Studies prefer and it is the one that the WHO recognized because of it's focus on eliminating prejudice. That's what's crucial to PWDs. The others don't and that's what's wrong with them.
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That's interesting. I know people in disability studies who are part of the ongoing discussion and critique about the utility of the social model as the representative model of disability.
 
Kimmio said:
@DaisyJane My parents did the best the could raising me with a disability. But they don't know more about MY suffering or challenges or dealing with prejudices than I do. My physios helped me to overcome to the best of my ability, some physical difficulties I was having, but they don't know more than me about the experience of inequality and social prejudice. My doctors treat me with medication for my symptoms but they don't know more than me about my daily life. Religious people have pitied me and looked upon me as a charity object, but they don't know more than me about what I need or who I am as a person.
People with disabilities can identify with me about all these things.
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So really, what you are saying and have been saying, is that because you live with a disability you can speak to the experience of disability and suffering, in its totality, in a universal way. That is presumptive, arrogant, and unhelpful.

For example, you cannot speak to my son's experience of disability. As his primary caregiver for the last 16 years I am the best judge of that experience - even though I am able-bodied. And I can assure you the source of my son's suffering at times has more to do with his body than society. Does my one opinion mean we should throw out the social model of disability. Of course not. I would never suggest my experience, or my son's experience, is universal in anyway. What it does mean is that the conversation is a lot more complicated and we need to look beyond the loudest voices.

You speak of oppression openly. Have you considered that your inflexible opinions may, at times, become oppressive to some PWDs themselves since you are not allowing their unique experiences to contribute to the dialogue.
 
@DaisyJane I used first person to highlight that that is why the social model was created by PWDs - because of everybody else projecting what we need or what our experience is. Sorry you didn't catch the prose.

I don't think it's arrogant. Individual experiences may differ but it is pretty universal that PWDs experience discrimination and people assuming what their problems are and what needs fixing.

I understand your son has physical suffering. I don't want to comment about your son. You are his caregiver. I want to talk about disability rights and PWDs as whole individuals in their own right.
 
DaisyJane said:
That's interesting. I know people in disability studies who are part of the ongoing discussion and critique about the utility of the social model as the representative model of disability.
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Interlopers:eek:

Interesting because Disability Studies is predicated upon the social model. I realize there are debates trying to discredit it. Perhaps some to enhance it.

Here's Ryerson's Program and what it's about: "illuminates the extent to which the lives of disabled people are shaped by patterns of injustice, exclusion, discrimination and the rule of social, cultural, and aesthetic 'norms'."

http://www.ryerson.ca/ds/
 
So, what do you say about my friend? She is brown-skinned, from another country, Muslim, female and has a disability related to arthritis. She has had this condition since childhood, and the condition may have been a significant reason for the family move to Canada. She has been working in a professional position for over 20 years.
 
Northwind said:
So, what do you say about my friend? She is brown-skinned, from another country, Muslim, female and has a disability related to arthritis. She has had this condition since childhood, and the condition may have been a significant reason for the family move to Canada. She has been working in a professional position for over 20 years.
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I have never met her. I would assume, although I would ask her more specifically, that she has experienced discrimination in our society, regardless of holding a professional position. I would not be surprised to hear that she experienced it within her professional position. Perhaps better than the country she came from - but still not good enough. Also, there are a few factors that would put her in various 'minority' or marginalized groups. It would be up to her to say which of these, if any has been a barrier for her. How visible is her disability? How much does she require accommodation for it?
 
Her disability is very visible. Is it the most important reason for oppression in her life according to your theories?
 
I would also say she is more of an exception - PWDs are underrepresented in professional positions. One of the reasons (not the only one) I chose SW related work - was because I assumed it would be easier, less discriminatory to succeed in it. Not quite true in reality but probably better than some fields.
 
Northwind points out something very important, and that is the notion of multiple identities. Disability is not a person's sole identity. Rather, there are intersections of identities. Despite what Kimmio wants to suggest, disability does not universally define a person, nor does it universally define their experience.

You say you don't want to talk about my son, you want to talk about disability rights. To remove my son and my son's experiences from the conversation implies that you only want to talk about the experiences of people with disabilities that fit your preferred definition and discussion of disabilities. You can't do that. Similarly when you dismiss my contribution to the discussion you are dismissing the academic contribution to disability discourse of a caregiver for an individual with profound disabilities. Somehow you have decided you are the arbiter of what constitutes an appropriate contribution to the discussion of disabilities based on whether it supports your ideas and arguments.

Whether you care to admit it or not there are many people with disabilities, and their allies, who work in a broad range of services and academia who would nuance your ideas. None of us would dismiss the social model outright, but many of us would bring a level of flexibility and nuance to the conversation that you are unprepared to offer. That level of inflexibility does a greater disservice to people with disabilities that I think you can appreciate.
 
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