Can we please stop misusing the name "Karen"?

[Northwind]

If entitled straight able bodied white people can’t take a joke on them, they lost the argument a long time ago - and that’s really the point.

While this involves mocking, it is not a joke. Suggesting someone "can't take a joke on them" is high on the gaslighting tactics. It is not okay.

as a catalyst for change. If you can’t you’re not getting it.

Is it a joke or a catalyst for change. It can't be both. You will never get anyone to change through humiliation. Change only comes when it's more painful to stay the same than to change.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

While this involves mocking, it is not a joke. Suggesting someone "can't take a joke on them" is high on the gaslighting tactics. It is not okay.



Is it a joke or a catalyst for change. It can't be both. You will never get anyone to change through humiliation. Change only comes when it's more painful to stay the same than to change.

Of course it can be both. George Carlin? Lenny Bruce? Fking Monty Python for that matter.

It's the "Karens" doing the humiliating. For centuries. Karen is just a place holder for a "white" name, that's dated, that mocks entitled white woman behaviour and goes back to colonial times - it's an idea more than a personal insult. If anyone is personally insulted they missed the point. I stand by that. That's not gaslighting. Comedy is used to hold a dark mirror to ourselves and as a catalyst for change all the time. If the Karens can't take that their first name is being used but that it's not about them, they really do have issues, and maybe they deserve the joke. Go ahead and replace it with Kim. I don't care if you make fun of all the generic Kims - to make a point about something important to critique like entitlement. I can take it. When the Kims and Karen's start whining about it we're only exposing the very entitlement being mocked.

Should every person who was unfortunately named Jim
Crow take offence with jokes at Jim Crow's expense?

 

[Northwind]

For the record, I am not personally insulted by the use of the name Karen in such a manner. I stand by my gaslighting comment.

I fail to see the connection between humour from people like George Carlin or others and the "Karen" phenomenon. People like George Carlin did more than just throw a name out in their humour.

If you say someone can't take a joke involving their name you are absolutely gaslighting. That is the mainstay of gaslighting, to discredit another opinion.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

For the record, I am not personally insulted by the use of the name Karen in such a manner. I stand by my gaslighting comment.

I fail to see the connection between humour from people like George Carlin or others and the "Karen" phenomenon. People like George Carlin did more than just throw a name out in their humour.

If you say someone can't take a joke involving their name you are absolutely gaslighting. That is the mainstay of gaslighting, to discredit another opinion.

No, the mainstay of gaslighting is to get someone to question their sanity and reason when they know what they're talking about. I gave you plenty of reason for the use of Karen as a placeholder to refer to entitled white women, it's not insane, it's a real problem. Entitled white women...we are the problem being described by that noun. And I didn't invent it. We're having this discussion because somebody else came up with the Karen thing to describe it . But I do get it.

 

[ChemGal]

Of course it can be both. George Carlin? Lenny Bruce? Fking Monty Python for that matter.

It's the "Karens" doing the humiliating. For centuries. Karen is just a place holder for a "white" name, that's dated, that mocks entitled white woman behaviour and goes back to colonial times - it's an idea more than a personal insult. If anyone is personally insulted they missed the point. I stand by that. That's not gaslighting. Comedy is used to hold a dark mirror to ourselves and as a catalyst for change all the time. If the Karens can't take that their first name is being used but that it's not about them, they really do have issues, and maybe they deserve the joke. Go ahead and replace it with Kim. I don't care if you make fun of all the generic Kims - to make a point about something important to critique like entitlement. I can take it. When the Kims and Karen's start whining about it we're only exposing the very entitlement being mocked.

Should every person who was unfortunately named Jim
Crow take offence with jokes at Jim Crow's expense?

So what do you think I should have done about the biopsy scheduling? Ignored it? Because I'm white? I'm too entitled for wanting care after being told I've had metastatic cancer for 5 years?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

So what do you think I should have done about the biopsy scheduling? Ignored it? Because I'm white? I'm too entitled for wanting care after being told I've had metastatic cancer for 5 years?

Nope, it's not about that.

 

[Northwind]

No, the mainstay of gaslighting is to get someone to question their sanity and reason when they know what they're talking about.

That's what I'm saying. One of the best ways to do that is to suggest the person doesn't have a sense of humour.

We're going to have to agree to disagree because I stand firm in my view about the label.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

We can agree to disagree on this - if only because we're both entitled white women.

 

[ChemGal]

Nope, it's not about that.

Then what's it about when someone is able to use a sexist, race based term for trying to get change made?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

[

Then what's it about when someone is able to use a sexist, race based term for trying to get change made?

I don't know exactly what situation you are referring to. Did you find out you have cancer? If so I am really sorry to hear that, I'm sorry if I missed you writing about it somewhere - and this is not the thread for expressing that - unless a person you were trying to get help from called you a Karen.

 

[Northwind]

[

I don't know exactly what situation you are referring to. Did you find out you have cancer? If so I am really sorry to hear that, I'm sorry if I missed you writing about it somewhere - and this is not the thread for expressing that - unless a person you were trying to get help from called you a Karen.

I believe @ChemGal has spoken about this before. She has been called "Karen" for merely advocating for herself in her health care. Too often women are still denigrated for standing up for themselves and others. This is another reason a simplistic label like "Karen" is useless and even harmful when addressing a behaviour that does need to be changed.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I believe @ChemGal has spoken about this before. She has been called "Karen" for merely advocating for herself in her health care. Too often women are still denigrated for standing up for themselves and others. This is another reason a simplistic label like "Karen" is useless and even harmful when addressing a behaviour that does need to be changed.

I stand by my opinion that if used right it only does harm to harmful behaviour.

 

[ChemGal]

[

I don't know exactly what situation you are referring to. Did you find out you have cancer? If so I am really sorry to hear that, I'm sorry if I missed you writing about it somewhere - and this is not the thread for expressing that - unless a person you were trying to get help from called you a Karen.

Just to update you about that situation, no cancer. I have 20 non-cancerous tumours. At the time they were assumed to be metastatic cancer because of the number.
The Karen thing - a white woman - putting in formal complaints, asking to speak to a manager, etc. It's not just about white women being racist. If it were I would rather just label their racist behaviour.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

When I was a teenager, my friends used to say "Ok, Martha." if I was being a fussbudget. I don't know where they got Martha from because nobody went to church and it was before Martha Stewart. It was just an old fashioned name that came to mind. We also refered to each other by our mothers' names when clearly we were acting like our mothers' most unfavourable traits: "Okay, Judy." "Okay, Doreen." Similar concept as "OK, Boomer." And "OK, Karen". It's a bit of a diss - but OK, so what? get over yourselves.

 

[Northwind]

I stand by my opinion that if used right it only does harm to harmful behaviour.

But it isn't always used properly and is imprecise.

 

[Northwind]

OK, so what? get over yourselves.

So because we disagree with you and have explained several times why, we are to get over ourselves?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Just to update you about that situation, no cancer. I have 20 non-cancerous tumours. At the time they were assumed to be metastatic cancer because of the number.
The Karen thing - a white woman - putting in formal complaints, asking to speak to a manager, etc. It's not just about white women being racist. If it were I would rather just label their racist behaviour.

It's not about that. You are confusing real standing up for yourself with entitled women who got the wrong latte and feel it perfectly within their rights to lose it on the "help".

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

But it isn't always used properly and is imprecise.

The wrong forces, the oppressors who cling to power, will always try to coopt everything and anything to get mainstream people to miss the point, and convince the marginalized they're in the wrong, and get the mainstream to join them in their real efforts to gaslight the public.

 

[Northwind]

The wrong forces, the oppressors who cling to power, will always try to coopt everything and anything to get mainstream people to miss the point, and convince the marginalized they're in the wrong, and get the mainstream to join them in their real efforts to gaslight the public.

That's not what's happening when I challenge the use of the label.

I am saying (again) name the actual behaviour and call it out. Using a label does not do that.

 

[ChemGal]

It's not about that. You are confusing real standing up for yourself with entitled women who got the wrong latte and feel it perfectly within their rights to lose it on the "help".

Yet both get labeled as being a Karen.