Can a minister from another denomination preside at Communion in the UC of Canada?

[Jaebius]

Interesting discussion. I am wondering about how other denominations would feel about having a United Church minister preside, but I am not asking out loud. Maybe Jae can fill me in.

I doubt it would ever occur at a Fellowship church. We look first to our pastors to preside - and if they're unavailable - to our deacons. At the same time - I know of nothing official within the Fellowship forbidding a congregation from asking a leader from a different denomination to preside. So - I guess the answer is possible - certainly not probable.

 

[Seeler]

I'm surprised that your deacons can preside at communion. I think of deacons as somewhat equivalent to our 'elders'. Elders serve communion, but to the best of my knowledge they do not preside - only ordained clergy or lay ministers licenced by the Presbytery preside at communion. As a Licensed Lay Worship Leader I do not preside at communion. At one time I was filling in for a minister on an extended break because of health problems - she came and presided at communion on World Wide Communion Sunday even though I led the rest of the service.
For a short time between ministers I led worship at several nursing homes. Sometimes I was asked to serve communion. After a discussion with the Session of my church it was decided that since I was an Elder and participated in communion regularly at our church, I could take communion to the nursing homes. It would be viewed similar to an Elder taking communion to a shut-in on behalf of the church. We served communion; we did not preside. Splitting hairs perhaps, but that was how it was done.
Bottom line - only ordained clergy, and those licensed to do so, can preside over communion in a UCC.
Those who know more than me - correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Mendalla]

I'm not surprised, seeler. The UCCan's practice doesn't automatically extend to all Protestants. Keep in mind that a highly congregational church like the FBs puts a lot of the responsibility for who can do what in the hands of the congregation. UU'ism is like that, too. Anyone can lead anything as long as the local congregation approves. We do not have a central rite like Communion but we do have some commonly followed traditions like Flower Communion and Ingathering and if no clergy is available to lead them, then lay people will do it. I may be helping with Ingathering at my fellowship in the Fall along with another lay person.

 

[Jaebius]

I'm not surprised, seeler. The UCCan's practice doesn't automatically extend to all Protestants. Keep in mind that a highly congregational church like the FBs puts a lot of the responsibility for who can do what in the hands of the congregation. UU'ism is like that, too. Anyone can lead anything as long as the local congregation approves. We do not have a central rite like Communion but we do have some commonly followed traditions like Flower Communion and Ingathering and if no clergy is available to lead them, then lay people will do it. I may be helping with Ingathering at my fellowship in the Fall along with another lay person.

You have some of the kewlest-sounding traditions Mendalla. What are Flower Communion - and Ingathering?

 

[Mendalla]

I think I described them over on WC but it's been a while and we're in a brave new world here.

Flower Communion is our spring ritual. People bring in flowers from their gardens and place them in a common vase. They are blessed and then each person comes forward to choose a flower from the vase.

Ingathering, or Water Communion, is our fall ritual to kick off the church year. Each person is invited to bring some water from their summer travels and pour it into a common vase/bowl and tell about its significance. At the end, we pour the collected water into our gardens.

 

[Jaebius]

I think I described them over on WC but it's been a while and we're in a brave new world here.

Flower Communion is our spring ritual. People bring in flowers from their gardens and place them in a common vase. They are blessed and then each person comes forward to choose a flower from the vase.

Ingathering, or Water Communion, is our fall ritual to kick off the church year. Each person is invited to bring some water from their summer travels and pour it into a common vase/bowl and tell about its significance. At the end, we pour the collected water into our gardens.

Okay - honestly - I love those traditions. They sound so kewl - and like they would be wonderful ways to show and promote group unity. The Ingathering reminds me - somewhat - of the sand ceremony my wife and I had at our wedding. Her mom brought sand from South Korea - and my mom brought sand from northern New Brunswick. We coloured them (one sand red - the other blue) - then - at the wedding - poured them in layers into a common vase while telling of their significance to us.

 

[chansen]

While our Joint Search Committee works, we have an ordained Mennonite minister working for us part time (preaching and performing pastoral care). Until recently, we had a retired UCC minister perform our sacraments (baptism and communion, specifically). In the last month our Mennonite minister was granted "Ordained Supply" status from the United Church. Although she is now able to offer the sacraments, she is cautious because she wants to be sure she doesn`t do anything that is contrary to the Mennonite traditions.

Just don't use electronic wafers, and you should be good.

 

[crazyheart]

I know this is meant for another thread but I personally think that the rules for The Sacraments of Communion and Baptism are too stringent in the United Church.

 

[Jaebius]

I know this is meant for another thread but I personally think that the rules for The Sacraments of Communion and Baptism are too stringent in the United Church.

Why? They are hardly the most stringent that I have come across.

 

[Tabitha]

Actually any believer can baptise. At least that it what I was taught. One church I was with in Edmonton was beside a big hospital. The minister was often called on to baptise ill babies in the NICU. He would gather nurses of faith, and the family. He used to say that any christian could do a baptism that the UCof Canada would reconize. And it could be by sprinkling, pouring or full immersion.

 

[crazyheart]

Tab, there are specific rules for this though. Maybe John or Gord can drop by.

 

[revsdd]

Tab, there are specific rules for this though. Maybe John or Gord can drop by.

Basically, any baptized Christian can baptize in an "emergency." In other words, if an unbaptized person - child or adult - is gravely ill, any baptized Christian can baptize.

Back to your comment - in what way is the United Church too strict? The United Church is so loose in who it allows to preside at sacraments that the whole concept of actually being ordained to "word, SACRAMENT, and pastoral care" has become, in my view, a joke. We need to be stricter if anything. Or we need to do some serious thinking about our theology of sacraments.

 

[revjohn]

Basically, any baptized Christian can baptize in an "emergency." In other words, if an unbaptized person - child or adult - is gravely ill, any baptized Christian can baptize.

Pastorally, I agree with this statement. In the event of an emergency any Christian (I would even go so far as to say any non-Christian can baptize any individual). Why? Because in an emergency it is the action of baptism which becomes important and that more so than our understanding of how the sacrament works.

Individuals experiencing stress around this particular sacrament while in life or death situations should have the concerns about the sacrament (usually that it be performed) addressed to alleviate that source of stress and give physicians and surgeons that much more room to do their thing.

Theologically I have a problem with the statement (and it is not a problem with the notion of who may perform it is a problem with why the necessity of Baptism becomes emergency). Emergency is matters of life and/or death. Baptism fits into this category with difficulty.

Does Baptism save or is Baptism a symbol of a covenant in which God promises to save?

May God make the promise without the outward symbol or is God limited only to outward symbol and/or ritual?

Do the unbaptized automatically descend into the lake of fire upon their death? That is not a Protestant belief.

Are any spared from the effects of hell because they were dipped, dunked or sprinkled? That is not a Protestant belief.

So the only time the term emergency baptism carries any weight (with me) is when it is a pastoral matter. Theologically it is nonsense.

 

[revjohn]

Tab, there are specific rules for this though. Maybe John or Gord can drop by.

Within the United Church it is expected that the sacraments will be presided over by individuals appointed to that task. Ordained Clergy have that right by virtue of their office. Diaconal Ministers and Designated Lay Ministers need to apply for permission to preside over the sacraments.

That is the "normal" celebration.

Then there is "special" celebration. The Moderator, for example, has the ability to preside over the sacraments by virtue of that office. It doesn't matter if the Moderator at the moment is of the Laity or a Paid Accountable Minister. I believe that there is a similar understanding in place for Conference Presidents. I am not aware of Presbytery Chairs having the same privilege extended to them by way of that office.

Then there are the pastoral "emergency" situations. The only real rule in these instances is "do no harm" and almost everything can be accepted and permitted in this area. Nurses or doctors baptizing infants born in distress. No denominational affiliation is necessary basically it is whomever responds to the desperate plea of a parent.

While in St. Anthony there was a period of time when the community was without a Roman Catholic or Anglican Priest and since I lived a few doors down to the hospital I got called out into the middle of the night quite a bit. Most times it was a very simple ministry of presence, an aged saint from the community was passing and I prayed with them and comforted them in absence of family or in the presence of family. The Anglicans or Roman Catholics would send a priest from a neighbouring parish for a funeral.

On one event an emergency childbirth resulted in a request for a baptism. I couldn't get there fast enough and even if I could have with all of the medical intervention going on for that child I wouldn't have been able to get a hand on it. Regrettably the medical intervention went for naught and the baby died. The family was Catholic and they desperately wanted a baptism. That I couldn't do. We do not baptize the dead in any circumstance.

I wasn't even in time to deliver extreme unction (which would have left a tremendously bad taste in my Reformed mouth but I would have done anyway).

The most I could offer was an anointing.

It would mean nothing for the child, it would however mean something to a mother already distraught and in some medical distress herself.

So I anointed the Baby, addressing it by the names that they had chosen.

When there was an issue with the burial (non-baptized children cannot go inside the fence at a Roman Catholic Cemetery--a point best left for another thread) I arranged for the baby to be buried in the United Church Cemetery (inside the fence) beside the mother's grandfather. It was a tight fit even for such a small casket.

The only other "emergency" request I had was a concern that the baby was growing too fast and it might not fit the christening gown if we didn't act fast. The baby was 9 months at the time. I was sympathetic but pointed out that they 9 months prior to the birth to arrange a baptism and several months afterward to do the same. Fashion does not meet emergency status. They caused a stir, the grandparents took my back and the baby and the gown both managed to wait another month.

 

[revsdd]

Pastorally, I agree with this statement. In the event of an emergency any Christian (I would even go so far as to say any non-Christian can baptize any individual). Why? Because in an emergency it is the action of baptism which becomes important and that more so than our understanding of how the sacrament works.

Individuals experiencing stress around this particular sacrament while in life or death situations should have the concerns about the sacrament (usually that it be performed) addressed to alleviate that source of stress and give physicians and surgeons that much more room to do their thing.

Theologically I have a problem with the statement (and it is not a problem with the notion of who may perform it is a problem with why the necessity of Baptism becomes emergency). Emergency is matters of life and/or death. Baptism fits into this category with difficulty.

Does Baptism save or is Baptism a symbol of a covenant in which God promises to save?

May God make the promise without the outward symbol or is God limited only to outward symbol and/or ritual?

Do the unbaptized automatically descend into the lake of fire upon their death? That is not a Protestant belief.

Are any spared from the effects of hell because they were dipped, dunked or sprinkled? That is not a Protestant belief.

So the only time the term emergency baptism carries any weight (with me) is when it is a pastoral matter. Theologically it is nonsense.

I agree with your concern about the word "emergency" (although I'll have to mull over whether I agree that an "emergency" is only a matter of life or death - at the moment I think that I have a broader definition of the word "emergency" than you do) but I think I would agree that baptism does not fall into the category of an "emergency." A poor choice of words on my part, but it was the first word that came into my mind. Perhaps "pastoral crisis" or "pastoral necessity" sums up better what I'm saying.

I have twice performed such baptisms. Interestingly, both were adults on their death beds, affiliated with the church I was serving but never baptized. Neither, I believe, were in a position to request baptism or to understand what was happening, but I considered it pastorally necessary to the family to administer baptism, after which, following the practices of the United Church, I reported the baptisms to the governing body.

 

[Seeler]

I think that the 'emergency baptism' may be needed in the minds and hearts of those involved. A person might decide on their deathbed that they would like to be baptized. This happened in our congregation. The wife was a regular church-goer; the husband not so, but when he grew older and retired (he'd been a professor at the university), he talked more with his wife about her beliefs. Then he met one of the retired ministers who attend our church and they had some great talks. Then he became ill, and spent the last few weeks of his life in palitive care. He inquired about baptism, asking questions, reading about it. Arrangements were being made when he took a turn for the worst. A few people gathered around his bedside and he was baptized just hours before his death according to his wishes (he was conscious until the end).

Or the emergency might be in the mind of the parent. They know that their baby is not going to live. They request baptism. Somebody offers it. The parent finds it comforting to know that their baby was baptised and given a name.

 

[Seeler]

Of course I believe that neither of these two samples are emergencies in that somehow or other being baptized will lead to salvation while dying without first being baptized will lead to purgatory or hell. But they are important and have significance for the person requesting them.

 

[Jaebius]

As far as I know - emergency baptisms are not performed by Baptist pastors. I could be wrong about that.

 

[Spirit Wind 7]

I believe it is at the discretion of the Conference. A License for the sacraments is endorsed by them, or not. However, saying that, it is the Presbytery that has the right to say no, or to send the recommendation to Conference for endorsement.
I have preside at Table when the one doing the main part of the service was not recognized/licensed to do so.

General Council is looking at that and also allowing Diaconal Ministers to preside at the point of Commissioning, as an Ordained Minister. It may even be extended further to others with training. Big decisions but they may help where there are none to offer this.
Our country is vast and sparsely populated in some places.

I think much more sharing needs to be done in all aspects of ministry to meet the needs of people.... wherever, who ever they are.
Going out .. anyone?

Get ready.....

Peace be ...

 

[Delightful Life]

As far as I know - emergency baptisms are not performed by Baptist pastors. I could be wrong about that.

that made me think of a kind of Firehall, where when the sirens start
"OH NO! MTEMBE'S FAITH HAS FALTERED! QUICK, TO THE HOSANNAHMOBILE!"