paradox3
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Definitely worth a look!
Bible Study Thread: Luke
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paradox3
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Agreed that parables are stories told to make a particular point and it can be a mistake to look for meaning in every detail.
But it is not always easy to discern which are the critical details of the story.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Todays scripture ----
Luke 15:11-32 GW
The Lost Son
11 Then Jesus said, “A man had two sons. 12 The younger son said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the property.’ So the father divided his property between his two sons.
13 “After a few days, the younger son gathered his possessions and left for a country far away from home. There he wasted everything he had on a wild lifestyle. 14 He had nothing left when a severe famine spread throughout that country. He had nothing to live on. 15 So he got a job from someone in that country and was sent to feed pigs in the fields. 16 No one in the country would give him any food, and he was so hungry that he would have eaten what the pigs were eating.
17 “Finally, he came to his senses. He said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more food than they can eat, while I’m starving to death here? 18 I’ll go at once to my father, and I’ll say to him, “Father, I’ve sinned against heaven and you. 19 I don’t deserve to be called your son anymore. Make me one of your hired men.”’
20 “So he went at once to his father. While he was still at a distance, his father saw him and felt sorry for him. He ran to his son, put his arms around him, and kissed him. 21 Then his son said to him, ‘Father, I’ve sinned against heaven and you. I don’t deserve to be called your son anymore.’[a]
22 “The father said to his servants, ‘Hurry! Bring out the best robe, and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let’s celebrate with a feast. 24 My son was dead and has come back to life. He was lost but has been found.’ Then they began to celebrate.
25 “His older son was in the field. As he was coming back to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 He called to one of the servants and asked what was happening.
27 “The servant told him, ‘Your brother has come home. So your father has killed the fattened calf to celebrate your brother’s safe return.’
28 “Then the older son became angry and wouldn’t go into the house. His father came out and begged him to come in. 29 But he answered his father, ‘All these years I’ve worked like a slave for you. I’ve never disobeyed one of your commands. Yet, you’ve never given me so much as a little goat for a celebration with my friends. 30 But this son of yours spent your money on prostitutes, and when he came home, you killed the fattened calf for him.’
31 “His father said to him, ‘My child, you’re always with me. Everything I have is yours. 32 But we have something to celebrate, something to be happy about. This brother of yours was dead but has come back to life. He was lost but has been found.’”
unsafe says ---this parable follows directly after the lost sheep and the lost coin ----so that gives us a clue as to what the parable here is about ----it is a continuing of ----I was lost but now I'm found -----as balckbelt1961 has already pointed out about the 2 other parables in this chapter -----
So we see the younger son goes to his Father and asks for his inheritance and the Father then divides the property and gives the youngest what he ask for ---- ------
The Father doesn't question the son about why he wants the money ---he gives it freely without question ------The son shows his discontentment with staying with his family and working the land ------he is searching for freedom and worldly desires ----
unsafe says ----God people will not intervene with our freedom of choice ----He will allow us to be free to choose what life style we want to live -----that is our own choice -----
We see that the son has no good vision of what he really wants in his life ----he goes along in a haphazard manner till all resources are tapped out -----
unsafe says ---this is the way it is with the world without God in us directing us -----we are the lost sheep and the lost coin ---just wandering around this earth with no real direction or real purpose ------
We see that after everything runs out the son has no one left to call a friend and is all alone and ends up feeding the unclean animals of that time --the pigs ----He was hungry ---but no one feed him -----he was thirsty but no one gave him drink -----he had made a mess of his life and only when we are desperate and down and out -----that is when we come to the end of ourselves will the light start to shine through the darkness -----and we see this with this young son here -------- verses ---
16 No one in the country would give him any food, and he was so hungry that he would have eaten what the pigs were eating.
17 “Finally, he came to his senses. He said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more food than they can eat, while I’m starving to death here?
unsafe says -----The son had finally opened up his heart to the light and the veil was lifted and he saw what he was doing to himself -----He acknowledged his sin against heaven and his Father and was ready to change the way of his thinking ---true Repentance -----first step in God's recovery ----
We see the Father ---welcoming his lost Son back into the fold -----no questions asked -----
God is a great and loving Father who when we are ready to receive Him will receive us with open arms ---but we must receive Him first ----God will never force anyone to come into His welcoming arms -----
unsafe says ---Now we see how truth and love can affect us when we are not in understanding of what real repentance is ------The other son is provoked to Jealousy and resentment of his brother ------ his Father calms him down and explains that the lost son has been finally found -----
This is what the Bible is all about -----humans lost themselves spiritually ---God in His Love --Mercy and Grace has provided away back to Him for us to reconnect spiritually to Him so we can dwell in His Kingdom forever -----the Bible is about Jesus and Salvation -----we choose ----what we choose is where we end up ---all on us not God ----
Repentance is a mind change so behaviour changes ----- some have to hit rock bottom and come to the end of ourselves to see they need a Saviour to save us from ourselves -----The young son learned this lesson ------and choose life in the end -----
Luke 15:11-32 GW
The Lost Son
11 Then Jesus said, “A man had two sons. 12 The younger son said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the property.’ So the father divided his property between his two sons.
13 “After a few days, the younger son gathered his possessions and left for a country far away from home. There he wasted everything he had on a wild lifestyle. 14 He had nothing left when a severe famine spread throughout that country. He had nothing to live on. 15 So he got a job from someone in that country and was sent to feed pigs in the fields. 16 No one in the country would give him any food, and he was so hungry that he would have eaten what the pigs were eating.
17 “Finally, he came to his senses. He said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more food than they can eat, while I’m starving to death here? 18 I’ll go at once to my father, and I’ll say to him, “Father, I’ve sinned against heaven and you. 19 I don’t deserve to be called your son anymore. Make me one of your hired men.”’
20 “So he went at once to his father. While he was still at a distance, his father saw him and felt sorry for him. He ran to his son, put his arms around him, and kissed him. 21 Then his son said to him, ‘Father, I’ve sinned against heaven and you. I don’t deserve to be called your son anymore.’[a]
22 “The father said to his servants, ‘Hurry! Bring out the best robe, and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let’s celebrate with a feast. 24 My son was dead and has come back to life. He was lost but has been found.’ Then they began to celebrate.
25 “His older son was in the field. As he was coming back to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 He called to one of the servants and asked what was happening.
27 “The servant told him, ‘Your brother has come home. So your father has killed the fattened calf to celebrate your brother’s safe return.’
28 “Then the older son became angry and wouldn’t go into the house. His father came out and begged him to come in. 29 But he answered his father, ‘All these years I’ve worked like a slave for you. I’ve never disobeyed one of your commands. Yet, you’ve never given me so much as a little goat for a celebration with my friends. 30 But this son of yours spent your money on prostitutes, and when he came home, you killed the fattened calf for him.’
31 “His father said to him, ‘My child, you’re always with me. Everything I have is yours. 32 But we have something to celebrate, something to be happy about. This brother of yours was dead but has come back to life. He was lost but has been found.’”
unsafe says ---this parable follows directly after the lost sheep and the lost coin ----so that gives us a clue as to what the parable here is about ----it is a continuing of ----I was lost but now I'm found -----as balckbelt1961 has already pointed out about the 2 other parables in this chapter -----
So we see the younger son goes to his Father and asks for his inheritance and the Father then divides the property and gives the youngest what he ask for ---- ------
The Father doesn't question the son about why he wants the money ---he gives it freely without question ------The son shows his discontentment with staying with his family and working the land ------he is searching for freedom and worldly desires ----
unsafe says ----God people will not intervene with our freedom of choice ----He will allow us to be free to choose what life style we want to live -----that is our own choice -----
We see that the son has no good vision of what he really wants in his life ----he goes along in a haphazard manner till all resources are tapped out -----
unsafe says ---this is the way it is with the world without God in us directing us -----we are the lost sheep and the lost coin ---just wandering around this earth with no real direction or real purpose ------
We see that after everything runs out the son has no one left to call a friend and is all alone and ends up feeding the unclean animals of that time --the pigs ----He was hungry ---but no one feed him -----he was thirsty but no one gave him drink -----he had made a mess of his life and only when we are desperate and down and out -----that is when we come to the end of ourselves will the light start to shine through the darkness -----and we see this with this young son here -------- verses ---
16 No one in the country would give him any food, and he was so hungry that he would have eaten what the pigs were eating.
17 “Finally, he came to his senses. He said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more food than they can eat, while I’m starving to death here?
unsafe says -----The son had finally opened up his heart to the light and the veil was lifted and he saw what he was doing to himself -----He acknowledged his sin against heaven and his Father and was ready to change the way of his thinking ---true Repentance -----first step in God's recovery ----
We see the Father ---welcoming his lost Son back into the fold -----no questions asked -----
God is a great and loving Father who when we are ready to receive Him will receive us with open arms ---but we must receive Him first ----God will never force anyone to come into His welcoming arms -----
unsafe says ---Now we see how truth and love can affect us when we are not in understanding of what real repentance is ------The other son is provoked to Jealousy and resentment of his brother ------ his Father calms him down and explains that the lost son has been finally found -----
This is what the Bible is all about -----humans lost themselves spiritually ---God in His Love --Mercy and Grace has provided away back to Him for us to reconnect spiritually to Him so we can dwell in His Kingdom forever -----the Bible is about Jesus and Salvation -----we choose ----what we choose is where we end up ---all on us not God ----
Repentance is a mind change so behaviour changes ----- some have to hit rock bottom and come to the end of ourselves to see they need a Saviour to save us from ourselves -----The young son learned this lesson ------and choose life in the end -----
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Here is the thing about the lost son who was found ----When the son left this Fathers house ---his heart was hardened toward God and His will for his life -----The Heart here is not the heart that pumps our blood ---it is our inner man our center -----God I believe tugs on our hearts to come to Him ---but like this young lad his worldly desires and freedom drew him from God's tugging the Sin Nature is very powerful ----and all he could see was satisfying his fleshy desires ----when he finally came to his end ----only then did he embrace God's constant tugging and God changed the young mans hardened heart to a flesh heart and he was able to see the light in the darkness ----and this gave him the knowledge that he has to repent and turn back to his Father's house -----very important lesson here in my view -----
People who feel so lonely even in a crowd --is God tugging on them to come to Him and that loneliness will disappear when they can see the light through the darkness and allow God to change their hardened heart to be changed to a flesh heart and come to Him through true repentance ----
The young son was fortunate that he finally came to and surrendered to God's constant tugging on our heart---many continue to ignore it and carry on with their worldly lives ------
Greek word for heart
Strong's Concordance
kardia: heart
Original Word: καρδία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kardia
Phonetic Spelling: (kar-dee'-ah)
Definition: heart
Usage: lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.
2588 kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference (volitional desire, choice; see P. Hughs, 2 Cor, 354); "desire-producer that makes us tick" (G. Archer), i.e our "desire-decisions" that establish who we really are.
[Heart (2588 /kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but never referring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.]
People who feel so lonely even in a crowd --is God tugging on them to come to Him and that loneliness will disappear when they can see the light through the darkness and allow God to change their hardened heart to be changed to a flesh heart and come to Him through true repentance ----
The young son was fortunate that he finally came to and surrendered to God's constant tugging on our heart---many continue to ignore it and carry on with their worldly lives ------
Greek word for heart
Strong's Concordance
kardia: heart
Original Word: καρδία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kardia
Phonetic Spelling: (kar-dee'-ah)
Definition: heart
Usage: lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.
2588 kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference (volitional desire, choice; see P. Hughs, 2 Cor, 354); "desire-producer that makes us tick" (G. Archer), i.e our "desire-decisions" that establish who we really are.
[Heart (2588 /kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but never referring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.]
paradox3
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Just in from church after hearing the sermon about the Parable of the Prodigal Son.
The scripture lesson was the parable (as expected) with the addition of Luke 15: 1-3 at the end of the reading.
Luke 15: 1-3 provides the introduction to Jesus telling the three related parables. Jesus is responding to criticism that he is associating with sinners and tax collectors. It was emphasized in the sermon that Jesus is on His way to Jerusalem at this time and continuing to live boldly.
The sermon was presented dramatically, almost as a story telling. I noticed that many details were added in that don't actually appear in the text. Many of these were an interpretation of the emotions that must have been experienced by the father and the two sons.
The focus of the message was the unconditional love of the father for both sons. As we talked about on this thread yesterday, it was emphasized that the father ran to the prodigal son and welcomed him before the son even said anything.
As for the eldest son who was so resentful, it was pointed out that the father left the festivities to go and plead with him. The father provided reassurance to him that he was valued and appreciated.
The call to worship was based on the parable. Here it is:
The Spirit of God comes rushing out to greet us.
We are tended to, we are soothed, we are nurtured.
We just want to feel at home after a long time away.
And yet we feel like we can't quite come back,
We just wanted to feel valued for what we contribute.
Yet struggled to ask for the love we really need.
You know we are here as an imperfect people,
Yet - we are are here called by a Perfect Love.
Open your eyes, that love is running down the path, through the gate:
Truly we are here with an open soul and an open heart.
Come let us worship God.
A couple of other interesting points were made. There are no women in the story, for one thing, and there is no mention of a larger community. And finally we were asked where we would put ourselves in the story.
The scripture lesson was the parable (as expected) with the addition of Luke 15: 1-3 at the end of the reading.
Luke 15: 1-3 provides the introduction to Jesus telling the three related parables. Jesus is responding to criticism that he is associating with sinners and tax collectors. It was emphasized in the sermon that Jesus is on His way to Jerusalem at this time and continuing to live boldly.
The sermon was presented dramatically, almost as a story telling. I noticed that many details were added in that don't actually appear in the text. Many of these were an interpretation of the emotions that must have been experienced by the father and the two sons.
The focus of the message was the unconditional love of the father for both sons. As we talked about on this thread yesterday, it was emphasized that the father ran to the prodigal son and welcomed him before the son even said anything.
As for the eldest son who was so resentful, it was pointed out that the father left the festivities to go and plead with him. The father provided reassurance to him that he was valued and appreciated.
The call to worship was based on the parable. Here it is:
The Spirit of God comes rushing out to greet us.
We are tended to, we are soothed, we are nurtured.
We just want to feel at home after a long time away.
And yet we feel like we can't quite come back,
We just wanted to feel valued for what we contribute.
Yet struggled to ask for the love we really need.
You know we are here as an imperfect people,
Yet - we are are here called by a Perfect Love.
Open your eyes, that love is running down the path, through the gate:
Truly we are here with an open soul and an open heart.
Come let us worship God.
A couple of other interesting points were made. There are no women in the story, for one thing, and there is no mention of a larger community. And finally we were asked where we would put ourselves in the story.
paradox3
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Here is a verse that appears in the song, The Wild Rover:
I'll home to my parents, confess what I'd done
And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son
And when they've caressed me as ofttimes before
I never will play the wild rover no more
Unlike the son in the parable, however, the wild rover returns home with "gold in great store".
Still, it's interesting to see a biblical reference in a pub song.
I'll home to my parents, confess what I'd done
And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son
And when they've caressed me as ofttimes before
I never will play the wild rover no more
Unlike the son in the parable, however, the wild rover returns home with "gold in great store".
Still, it's interesting to see a biblical reference in a pub song.
paradox3
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Summary: Luke 16: 1-13
Jesus talks to the disciples and tells them the Parable of the Dishonest Manager
There was once a rich man who had a manager and he became aware the manager was squandering his property. So he called him in for an accounting of his management and fired him from his job. The manager did not know what to do because he was not strong enough to dig and he was too ashamed to beg.
So he decided what to do, so that people would still welcome him into their homes. He summoned his master's debtors one by one. He reduced their debts and took the payment from them. The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness, for the children of this generation are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light.
Jesus said, I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth, so that when it is gone they may welcome you into their eternal homes.
Whoever is faithful in very little is faithful in much. Whoever is dishonest in very little is dishonest in much.
If then you have not been faithful with dishonest wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches? And if you have not been faithful with what belongs to another, who will give you what is your own? No slave can serve two masters. You cannot serve God and wealth.
Jesus talks to the disciples and tells them the Parable of the Dishonest Manager
There was once a rich man who had a manager and he became aware the manager was squandering his property. So he called him in for an accounting of his management and fired him from his job. The manager did not know what to do because he was not strong enough to dig and he was too ashamed to beg.
So he decided what to do, so that people would still welcome him into their homes. He summoned his master's debtors one by one. He reduced their debts and took the payment from them. The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness, for the children of this generation are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light.
Jesus said, I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth, so that when it is gone they may welcome you into their eternal homes.
Whoever is faithful in very little is faithful in much. Whoever is dishonest in very little is dishonest in much.
If then you have not been faithful with dishonest wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches? And if you have not been faithful with what belongs to another, who will give you what is your own? No slave can serve two masters. You cannot serve God and wealth.
paradox3
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Reflection: Luke 16: 1 - 13
What a perplexing parable! I don't think I have ever read it in its entirety until now. The line "You cannot serve God and wealth" is familiar but the rest of the story is new to me. I actually had to read it over a few times to make sure I was not misreading the text.
At first blush it seems that Jesus is either being facetious or He is commending dishonesty.
Jesus told this parable to His disciples. Are they the "children of light" in the tale? Is He telling them they need to be shrewder in dealing with the world?
Who does the rich man represent? What about the manager?
It is possible the manager is still employed by the rich man when he approaches the debtors because he talks about "when" he is dismissed. Is he attempting to atone for some of his errors at this point? Maybe he was negligent in collecting on the debts which were due.
Could it be he is forgoing his own share of the payment? One of the debtor's accounts is reduced by 50% and the other by 20%. Is the discrepancy important in any way?
What a perplexing parable! I don't think I have ever read it in its entirety until now. The line "You cannot serve God and wealth" is familiar but the rest of the story is new to me. I actually had to read it over a few times to make sure I was not misreading the text.
At first blush it seems that Jesus is either being facetious or He is commending dishonesty.
Jesus told this parable to His disciples. Are they the "children of light" in the tale? Is He telling them they need to be shrewder in dealing with the world?
Who does the rich man represent? What about the manager?
It is possible the manager is still employed by the rich man when he approaches the debtors because he talks about "when" he is dismissed. Is he attempting to atone for some of his errors at this point? Maybe he was negligent in collecting on the debts which were due.
Could it be he is forgoing his own share of the payment? One of the debtor's accounts is reduced by 50% and the other by 20%. Is the discrepancy important in any way?
Redbaron
Pirate fan since the dark ages
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Yes, this one is definitely different than other parables of Jesus.
Yes, I think at this point the manager was still employed, just 'finishing up the paperwork', preparing the account he would pass on to the owner. The books were cooked a bit, and the owner saw that.
For sure, the manager has some smarts about him, it may well be he passed up his commission, in order to build up a relationship with his owner's debtors, so that one of them might take him on. I think at least one of the points Jesus is after is to be able to deal constructively with the world around us.
Seems to me that a lot of Christians would like live in a Christian bubble- have no dealings with 'earthly things'. I think maybe this passage from Jesus pierces that bubble... you may not be OF the world, but you're still IN it. Deal with it carefully, wisely, and with discernment.
Or something like that.
Yes, I think at this point the manager was still employed, just 'finishing up the paperwork', preparing the account he would pass on to the owner. The books were cooked a bit, and the owner saw that.
For sure, the manager has some smarts about him, it may well be he passed up his commission, in order to build up a relationship with his owner's debtors, so that one of them might take him on. I think at least one of the points Jesus is after is to be able to deal constructively with the world around us.
Seems to me that a lot of Christians would like live in a Christian bubble- have no dealings with 'earthly things'. I think maybe this passage from Jesus pierces that bubble... you may not be OF the world, but you're still IN it. Deal with it carefully, wisely, and with discernment.
Or something like that.
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
Like I said
Can you really repay your debts by using other peoples (tenants)money? Why didn't the manager use his own money to repay what he took? He made himself look right to the rich man, without permission from the rich man, but was he right with God? The rich man was happy and so were the tenants and they will now remember the manager fondly but does he think this has bought his way into Gods Kingdom? He was too weak to dig and too ashamed to beg....well maybe he needed to develop some humility and build his strength to dig to truly be repentant?
Of course grace cancels out that explanation
Of course grace cancels out that explanation
paradox3
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The manager was looking ahead, I think. He was probably not yet destitute when he approached his master's debtors. The rich man might also have been corrupt.
The sayings of Jesus at the end of the parable are puzzling, too. I have seen a couple of commentaries which suggest that even Luke might have struggled with this particular parable of Jesus. It is an odd one, that's for sure.
It appears in Year C of the RCL (Proper 20) but I don't believe I have ever encountered it in church as a reading or sermon topic.
The sayings of Jesus at the end of the parable are puzzling, too. I have seen a couple of commentaries which suggest that even Luke might have struggled with this particular parable of Jesus. It is an odd one, that's for sure.
It appears in Year C of the RCL (Proper 20) but I don't believe I have ever encountered it in church as a reading or sermon topic.
paradox3
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Does anyone think Jesus could be speaking facetiously here? It seems unlikely to me but I have to wonder. If Jesus is capable of sarcasm or irony in this parable, would it change our interpretation of any other?
Discussion on this thread has already allowed for Jesus using hyperbole on occasion.
And does the fact that He is nearing Jerusalem color the parable at all?
Discussion on this thread has already allowed for Jesus using hyperbole on occasion.
And does the fact that He is nearing Jerusalem color the parable at all?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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I think part of what is confusing is this. If a manager responsible for the books, say a corporate controller, was "accused of wasting his (owner's) possessions" today, they wouldn't necessarily get a chance to do what this manager does. They would be escorted to the door by HR and security and an audit started. Memos would be sent outlining that they were no longer empowered to collect the levies. And so on. This is really one of those "from a different time" stories and I think some of us have to get past that.
That said, it is still a rather difficult parable, the meaning requiring much more thought and consideration than some others.
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
paradox3
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What if we look at this parable as one in a series?
First we had the lost sheep. It's pretty clear a domesticated animal cannot repent.
Next up was the lost coin. Ditto for a coin's ability to repent.
Third was the prodigal son who was contrite over his actions. But he squandered his own inheritance when he went off to a far country.
Today we have this curious parable which can be read as a story of repentance at least in a limited way. The misdeed here was squandering the fortune of another.
Very soon we will come to The Rich Man and Lazarus. This is a tale where it is too late to repent.
The five stories could be seen as sequential in a way. What do you think?
First we had the lost sheep. It's pretty clear a domesticated animal cannot repent.
Next up was the lost coin. Ditto for a coin's ability to repent.
Third was the prodigal son who was contrite over his actions. But he squandered his own inheritance when he went off to a far country.
Today we have this curious parable which can be read as a story of repentance at least in a limited way. The misdeed here was squandering the fortune of another.
Very soon we will come to The Rich Man and Lazarus. This is a tale where it is too late to repent.
The five stories could be seen as sequential in a way. What do you think?
paradox3
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How about giving us a quick summary of the argument put forward here?
I am not a big fan of videos being put up with no explanation.
At the very least, please tell us why you think it is worth watching.
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