Bible Study Thread: Luke

[Jaebius]

Now this has me thinking about prayers of confession. I can remember a time we had them every week in church along with the assurance of pardon. This practice seems to be falling out of favor although some congregations still do it weekly. I understand the argument that having it so often reduces the prayer to rote recitation.

The minister we had until a year ago only offered a prayer of confession on Good Friday. He felt that regular prayers of confession reinforced the sense of toxic shame carried by too many people. His Good Friday services were always powerful for me.

Anyways, just thinking about this in the context of John's call to repentance.

Confession is an interesting topic. It is, in my opinion, something we Baptists don't do particularly well. About the only time we do it in a congregational setting is once a month before communion - at least in my years of experience. Even then, it's somewhat glossed over. Churches will offer a quiet time of self-reflection during which people can silently confess if they so choose.

What I'd really like is if Baptist pastors would make regular times to hear private confessions and then offer absolution as done in some other faith traditions.

 

[Jaebius]

Any more thoughts about today's passage? The temptation experienced by Jesus in the wilderness?

It's pretty kewl dramatically.

 

[paradox3]

Here is a related article about the practice of Confession from the October Observer.

My church was literally dying, until we returned to prayer and confession

 

[unsafe]

Repentance is a mind change people ------you can't change your behaviour until you change the way you think ------Many people including True Christ-ians have no clue what true repentance is -----It fist involves changing your thoughts ------



unsafe posting here ----

3341. metanoia ►
Strong's Concordance
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3341 metánoia – literally, "a change of mind" ("after-thought"); repentance.
a change of mind especially the change of mind of those who have begun to abhor their errors and misdeeds, and have determined to enter upon a better course of life, so that it embraces both a recognition of sin and sorrow for it and hearty amendment, the tokens and effects of which are good deeds
used merely of the improved spiritual state resulting from deep sorrow for sin



unsafe says and is posting from Acts 5 here below -----

Here is a perfect example one being a Carnal Christ-ian which is one who a babe in Christ and who has not come to full repentance ----there is still fleshy thinking here---- a want for self ----the action comes from the worldly thinking ------you body only moves to your thoughts ------the right thing was done in the end but their worldly greedy thinking swept over them in the beginning ----- Verse 3 is an important one here Folks -----and so is part of verse 4 ----for the Carnal Christ-ian ----


Acts 5 Expanded Bible (EXB)
Ananias and Sapphira Die

5 But a man named Ananias and his wife Sapphira sold ·some land [a piece of property].

2 He ·kept back [pilfered; skimmed off] part of the ·money [proceeds; price] for himself; his wife knew about this and agreed to it. But he brought the rest of the money and ·gave it to [L laid it at the feet of] the apostles.

3 Peter said, “Ananias, why did you let Satan ·rule your thoughts [L fill your heart] to lie to the Holy Spirit and to ·keep [pilfer; skim off] for yourself part of the ·money [proceeds] you received for the land?

4 Before you sold the land, it belonged to you. And even after you sold it, you could have used the ·money [proceeds] any way you wanted. Why did you think of doing this? You lied to God, not to us!” When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. Some young men came in, wrapped up his body, carried it out, and buried it. And everyone who heard about this was filled with fear.

unsafe says and posted from 2 Corinthians -----Repentance is turning from the world and turning to God and His way of thinking -------

 

[Jaebius]

Here is a related article about the practice of Confession from the October Observer.

My church was literally dying, until we returned to prayer and confession

It's a great testimony paradox3, thank you for sharing it. I've heard it said, "The church that prays together stays together." A few lines I really like from the article, "Something happened in those small groups that changed the trajectory of my life and ministry. I felt less self-reliant and less self-righteous than at any time before, and I felt infinitely, deeply, eternally loved."

 

[paradox3]

Repentance is a mind change people ------you can't change your behaviour until you change the way you think ------Many people including True Christ-ians have no clue what true repentance is -----It fist involves changing your thoughts ------

I am not sure about this, unsafe. In mental health practice we often considered the triangle of emotions, thoughts and behaviors.

Present day cognitive behavioral therapy stresses the connection between thoughts and feelings. "Stinking thinking" as they call it in AA which leads to feeling terrible. But even CBT purists will tell you sometimes it is easiest to change behavior first. Set some goals, start exercising, what have you. Put a smile on your face as some of our moms told us back in the day.

But of course this all comes from the medical model.

Can you say more about how we are to change our thinking in the context of repentance?

 

[unsafe]

Jae ---your quote ----- What I'd really like is if Baptist pastors would make regular times to hear private confessions and then offer absolution as done in some other faith traditions.

unsafe says -----this is the meaning of absolution -----


ab·so·lu·tion
Dictionary result for absolution
/ˌabsəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/
noun
formal release from guilt, obligation, or punishment.
synonyms: forgiveness, pardoning, exoneration, remission, dispensation, indulgence, purgation, clemency, mercy; More

• an ecclesiastical declaration of forgiveness of sins.

Jae ---are you saying a minister or priest can forgive sins and formally release one from guilt -----

unsafe says -----Jesus by shedding His Blood is the only one who can release us from our guilt and punishment of sin and who can forgive sins Jae ---no human has that authority in my Bible -------

 

[Carolla]

Sooo ... back to the questions of time in the wilderness & temptations. I recognize that my perceptions differ from others here ... so please, I ask for your respect, not your judgement or correction of my views.

I don't really believe in 'the devil' as a separate supernatural agent/puppetmaster, just as I don't place God in such a supernatural agent role. So I read this tale personally - not a 'bad guy vs good guy' tale, but a tale of internal struggle. I think we all have 'wildnerness times' in our lives - times of challenge and difficulty and perhaps temptation. Times when perhaps it is tempting to think or act in ways that may be self serving - such as Jesus is tempted in this story to feed himself, do acts that would garner adoration of others etc. Jesus chooses to not be self-serving but to reflect more widely and respond with humility, recognizing God's presence in his life. To me this is the crux of the story - the nugget I can take forward into my life in wilderness times.

 

[Jaebius]

Sooo ... back to the questions of time in the wilderness & temptations. I recognize that my perceptions differ from others here ... so please, I ask for your respect, not your judgement or correction of my views.

I don't really believe in 'the devil' as a separate supernatural agent/puppetmaster, just as I don't place God in such a supernatural agent role. So I read this tale personally - not a 'bad guy vs good guy' tale, but a tale of internal struggle. I think we all have 'wildnerness times' in our lives - times of challenge and difficulty and perhaps temptation. Times when perhaps it is tempting to think or act in ways that may be self serving - such as Jesus is tempted in this story to feed himself, do acts that would garner adoration of others etc. Jesus chooses to not be self-serving but to reflect more widely and respond with humility, recognizing God's presence in his life. To me this is the crux of the story - the nugget I can take forward into my life in wilderness times.

Very well written Carolla. I can certainly empathize with the internal struggle. Personally, I think of that struggle as largely being a battle between my old self (who I believe I was before God gave me faith) and my new self (who I believe I am since being born from above). What do you believe is the cause of the struggle within?

 

[paradox3]

Mark's account of the wilderness experience is only two verses long. It tells us Jesus was driven into the wilderness by the Spirit; He was there for 40 days and was tempted by Satan. He was with the wild beasts and the angels waited on Him. That's it.

Matthew and Luke's accounts are much more detailed and while not identical, they are very close. These two writers want us to understand the specific nature of the temptations. Only Luke has the devil departing "until an opportune time".

Matthew has angels appearing after the devil departs. No angels at all in Luke's version of the story.

Now that we are studying the third of the synoptic gospels, it is sometimes interesting to look at different versions of the same story. Doing this is time consuming but it certainly has me reading the different accounts very carefully.

 

[paradox3]

Very well written Carolla. I can certainly empathize with the internal struggle. Personally, I think of that struggle as largely being a battle between my old self (who I believe I was before God gave me faith) and my new self (who I believe I am since being born from above). What do you believe is the cause of the struggle within?

One of the most interesting aspects of this story (in any of the synoptic gospels) is the role of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit which calls Jesus into the wilderness.

I have had a few of those wilderness experiences in my own life. Not saying they involved Satan or temptation, but the wilderness metaphor fits better than any other for these particular times of internal struggle.

So was it the Spirit calling me into those wilderness times? I don't rule it out.

 

[Jaebius]

One of the most interesting aspects of this story (in any of the synoptic gospels) is the role of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit which calls Jesus into the wilderness.

I have had a few of those wilderness experiences in my own life. Not saying they involved Satan or temptation, but the wilderness metaphor fits better than any other for these particular times of internal struggle.

So was it the Spirit calling me into those wilderness times? I don't rule it out.

I think it quite possible it was she. I also think it quite possible that I'm in a wilderness period right now myself - living (largely) alone, separated from most of my family and friends who are half a world away.

 

[unsafe]

paradox3 -----------your quote ----- Present day cognitive behavioral therapy stresses the connection between thoughts and feelings. "Stinking thinking" as they call it in AA which leads to feeling terrible. But even CBT purists will tell you sometimes it is easiest to change behavior first.
Set some goals, start exercising, what have you. Put a smile on your face as some of our moms told us back in the day.


paradox 3 -----Bible repentance is a mind change --------you can believe as you like ----your thinking worldly with your view and that is OK as you are an unbeliever -----I'm thinking Spiritually as a True Christ-ian ----

unsafe says -----God makes it very clear here what true repentance is in His Spiritual Kingdom ------there are 2 education systems paradox3 ----worldly and Spiritual -----how you see it depends on which world your in ----the Physical or the Spiritual ------For me I will keep the Spiritual interpretation of Repentance -------

Romans 12:2 Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind [focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His plan and purpose for you].

Footnotes:

1. Romans 12:2 From the Greek word meaning “metamorphosis.” Refers to the process that leads to an outward, permanent change.

 

[Jaebius]

Jae ---your quote ----- What I'd really like is if Baptist pastors would make regular times to hear private confessions and then offer absolution as done in some other faith traditions.

unsafe says -----this is the meaning of absolution -----


ab·so·lu·tion
Dictionary result for absolution
/ˌabsəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/
noun
formal release from guilt, obligation, or punishment.
synonyms: forgiveness, pardoning, exoneration, remission, dispensation, indulgence, purgation, clemency, mercy; More

• an ecclesiastical declaration of forgiveness of sins.

Jae ---are you saying a minister or priest can forgive sins and formally release one from guilt -----

unsafe says -----Jesus by shedding His Blood is the only one who can release us from our guilt and punishment of sin and who can forgive sins Jae ---no human has that authority in my Bible -------

As God had sent Jesus into the world, unsafe, so he transferred his authority and power to his missionaries. They were to carry peace into the world.

He sent them forth to preach the Gospel. For the Gospel's summary's peace with God through Jesus. And having made them his messengers, Jesus inducts them into this office. He conveyed to them the Spirit who lived in him.

The Spirit was with them, "If you cancel the sins of any, they are cancelled to them; if you keep those of any, they are kept." So they received the power to pronounce forgiveness; the Office of the Keys was established.

Sins' forgiveness which Jesus earned should be given to people through the Gospel. This is absolution. Jesus' will: his missionaries should take away sins, and then everyone should know that by such absolution they're forgiven.

The Gospel is the application of the salvation earned by Jesus, unsafe the imparting of sins' forgiveness.

Only they that won't accept this mercy exclude themself from grace. This power and authority accompanies the Gospel, it's contained in Jesus' commission to his missionaries to preach the Gospel to all people groups.

To the missionaries, unsafe, to the missional church that proclaims the Gospel's message, the keys are given. The pastors that exercise this authority do so in the church's name.

 

[paradox3]

paradox 3 -----Bible repentance is a mind change --------you can believe as you like ----your thinking worldly with your view and that is OK as you are an unbeliever -----I'm thinking Spiritually as a True Christ-ian ----

In a word, unsafe, no. I am not an unbeliever. I understand you consider yourself to be a true Christian looking at the world with those spiritual glasses of yours. I get it. But I am not an unbeliever.

2 And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind [focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His plan and purpose for you].

Is this the change in thinking you were advocating earlier? Renewing of the mind focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes?

 

[Jaebius]

Romans 12:2 Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind [focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His plan and purpose for you].

Footnotes:

1. Romans 12:2 From the Greek word meaning “metamorphosis.” Refers to the process that leads to an outward, permanent change.

The missionary’s way of comporting themself, unsafe, must not agree with the world, with the behavior of people that live for this world only. Missionaries will under no circumstances accommodate themselves to the world's habits.

Because they've been removed from the world, unsafe, they'll assume a different character in the world. This they'll do through their renewal, which begins in conversion and continues through their life. The change in a person's habit's the result of the inner change.

And so the missionary's concern's to discover what God's will is. A missionary's active in studying God's will from the Scriptures, and then in practicing the knowledge thus gained. Such conduct's the missionaries' character, helping them to attain the real end of their being in the world.

 

[Jaebius]

In a word, unsafe, no. I am not an unbeliever. I understand you consider yourself to be a true Christian looking at the world with those spiritual glasses of yours. I get it. But I am not an unbeliever.

You're just not stamped out of the right cookie cutter for some. That's okay, neither am I. I'm a carnal Christian with my head through the fence.

 

[Waterfall]

Did Jesus deny that Satan had the authority to offer these things to Him? ,whose authority?
And why did Jesus say do not put the Lord YOUR God to the test? It seems that Satan may rule the world but God is still Satans God too.

 

[Seeler]

Sooo ... back to the questions of time in the wilderness & temptations. I recognize that my perceptions differ from others here ... so please, I ask for your respect, not your judgement or correction of my views.

I don't really believe in 'the devil' as a separate supernatural agent/puppetmaster, just as I don't place God in such a supernatural agent role. So I read this tale personally - not a 'bad guy vs good guy' tale, but a tale of internal struggle. I think we all have 'wildnerness times' in our lives - times of challenge and difficulty and perhaps temptation. Times when perhaps it is tempting to think or act in ways that may be self serving - such as Jesus is tempted in this story to feed himself, do acts that would garner adoration of others etc. Jesus chooses to not be self-serving but to reflect more widely and respond with humility, recognizing God's presence in his life. To me this is the crux of the story - the nugget I can take forward into my life in wilderness times.

Carolla, thank you for the words that express what I believe.
This is actually of my favourite passages of Scripture. I was referred to as many times with leading worship. I don't dwell on the details or worry too much about the references to Satan.
Jesus wilderness experience – I look on this as a time of discernment. Jesus left his choose one home village where he lived for approximately 30 years with his mother and siblings. He heard John the Baptist's message, listen to it and and been baptized. He was the Spirit to a new way of life far different from being a carpenter/handyman in his home village. He feels he has a mission; he has to figure out how he will will fulfil that mission. So he goes off by himself in the wilderness to think and pray.
We really don't know much about what he experienced during those 40 days. He certainly would have been hungry and thirsty and suffering from the extreme heat. By the end of that time he had faced three temptations. The first the first was to start the stones into bread. This would be a good thing, wouldn't it - feed the hungry? And imagine the following he would attract. Bread and circuses. Gather them in with food and entertainment and try to deliver a message, No - that wasn't the way Jesus would choose.
Power and prestige - ruler over all the earth? a benevolent dictator who could use that power for good? Tempting. How many times do we think or say 'if I were in charge things would be different.'?
King of the world? or
High Priest of the temple?
Jesus rejected these temptations. He returned to civilation and began his mission - a humble servant bringing the Good News of God's love.

 

[Jaebius]

Did Jesus deny that Satan had the authority to offer these things to Him? ,whose authority?
And why did Jesus say do not put the Lord YOUR God to the test? It seems that Satan may rule the world but God is still Satans God too.

Biblically Waterfall, Satan has to answer to God. Consider Job 1:6, "And in a day, when the sons of God were come to be present before the Lord, also Satan came among them." (WYC). Satan, as this world's prince, has only as much freedom as God lets him have, in afflicting God's children and in leading them into temptation.