Bible Study Thread: Luke

[unsafe]

paradox3 -----your quote -----Thanks for your post unsafe. This interpretation is a new one for me. I have always understood laying the babe in the manger to be symbolic of the Holy Family's poverty. But there is no reason it can't have more than one meaning.

unsafe says ---where is the scripture that says the Holy Family was poor ------Jesus was given very expensive gifts ---God being one of them ----the Bible says Wiremen came it doesn't say how many but we know that it was more than one -----so what poor are you speaking of -----

That should be gold being one

 

[BetteTheRed]

OK, unsafe, you're mixing metaphors here. The manger must be a metaphor for Jesus being the Bread of Life, but the gifts are literal, and made Jesus' poor family rich?

Getting back to Luke, why were there no wise men and gifts here, but only poor shepherds?

 

[unsafe]

Jesus was given gifts at His Birth -----very valuable and expensive gifts -----

unsafe posting here ---read all for yourselves -----
What did gold, frankincense, and myrrh represent? | NeverThirsty

Gift of Gold
The gift of gold was considered worthy of a king. The buildings and treasures of kings and pharaohs from the ancient past have left reminders that gold was the prize of rulers and kings. Both secular and biblical kings greatly valued gold. The following two passages reveal that King Solomon acquired valued gold and King Nebuchadnezzar made a gold idol or image of himself.


Gift of Frankincense
Frankincense comes from tree resins. Frankincense was once greatly valued throughout the Middle East from Rome to India. It was very expensive and has a wonderful fragrance. Frankincense occurs fifteen times in the Bible. A quick survey reveals it was used primarily in biblical times for making incense (Exodus 30:34) and as an ingredient in sacrifices (Leviticus 2:1-2). Song of Solomon 3:6; 4:14 reveals it was also an ingredient in perfume. Since frankincense was primarily used in the Bible in worship, frankincense speaks of the worship of God..

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take for yourself spices, stacte and onycha and galbanum, spices with pure frankincense; there shall be an equal part of each. Exodus 30:34 (NASB)



Gift of Myrrh
Myrrh is extruded from the gum of the Commiphora myrrh plant. Myrrh was less expensive than frankincense, but was still highly valued. Myrrh is referred to seventeen times in the Bible and is first mentioned in Genesis 37:25, where it was being carried by camels in a caravan. Myrrh was used for a variety of purposes in biblical times as a perfume (Song of Solomon 1:13; 3:6; 4:6, 14; 5:1, 5, 13), an anesthetic, for burial embalming (John 19:39), as an ingredient in anointing oil (Exodus 30:23-25), and to deodorize clothes. According to Esther 2:12, it was also used in a cosmetic for women. John 19:39 records that myrrh was used in Jesus’ burial.

Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. John 19:39 (NASB)

In the New Testament, myrrh is primarily associated with death.


unsafe says
Whether the Holy Family was rich or poor matters not -----What really Matters is that Jesus was Born to bring Salvation to all if they so desire to receive His Saving Grace Gift which comes through Saving Faith in what Jesus was Born to accomplish ------

Not all Faith saves -----there is only one Grace and one Faith that saves a person -----that is the Grace that comes through believing in the unseen -----The Just shall live by Faith not by sight -----Jesus was born to fulfil the Law that no Human could fulfil ----


unsafe posting here -----

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed ------but the gifts are literal, and made Jesus' poor family rich?

unsafe says -----Joseph was a carpenter so he had a skilled trade---- BetteTheRed -----I really don't Think he was down and out I am sure he would have been paid for his work -----

Now back to Luke 2

 

[Waterfall]

But there is a point Luke makes... as I recall, being a shepherd was rather low on the socio-economic scale of things. Maybe the good news of great joy (which would be to all people) was especially meant for the ignored, overlooked and forgotten ones?

Or they came to teach him how to lead sheep?

 

[Mendalla]

Or they came to teach him how to lead sheep?

Actually, that may well be part of it. If the nativity narrative truly was an interpolation, maybe the author had the shepherd image in mind. Red's works, too, of course. And they aren't mutually exclusive, either.

For me, this story, moreso than Matthew's, has the symbolism of birth being a moment of possibility, when "peace on Earth, goodwill among men, with whom God is pleased" (yes, that comma matters) could become real in the next generation. It's certainly what ran through my mind as I held Little M for the first time (almost twenty years now).

 

[paradox3]

For me, this story, more so than Matthew's, has the symbolism of birth being a moment of possibility, when "peace on Earth, goodwill among men, with whom God is pleased" (yes, that comma matters) could become real in the next generation. It's certainly what ran through my mind as I held Little M for the first time (almost twenty years now).

Yes, there is something about Luke's birth narrative that captures the joy, wonder and hope of bringing life into the world.

 

[unsafe]

The Birth of Jesus fulfils the Prophecy of the coming Saviour in the Old Testament ------

The shepherds were chosen because God the Father in the Old Testament called Moses and David while they was shepherding sheep


unsafe posting here from Exodus

Exodus 3 (GW)
Moses at the Burning Bush
3 Moses was taking care of the sheep of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. As he led the sheep to the far side of the desert, he came to Horeb, the mountain of God.

2 The Messenger of the Lord appeared to him there as flames of fire coming out of a bush. Moses looked, and although the bush was on fire, it was not burning up. 3 So he thought, “Why isn’t this bush burning up? I must go over there and see this strange sight.”

4 When the Lord saw that Moses had come over to see it, God called to him from the bush, “Moses, Moses!”


unsafe posting here ----
1 Samuel 16 (GNT)
David Is Anointed King

8 Then Jesse called his son Abinadab and brought him to Samuel. But Samuel said, “No, the Lord hasn't chosen him either.” 9 Jesse then brought Shammah. “No, the Lord hasn't chosen him either,” Samuel said. 10 In this way Jesse brought seven of his sons to Samuel. And Samuel said to him, “No, the Lord hasn't chosen any of these.” 11 Then he asked him, “Do you have any more sons?”

Jesse answered, “There is still the youngest, but he is out taking care of the sheep.”

“Tell him to come here,” Samuel said. “We won't offer the sacrifice until he comes.” 12 So Jesse sent for him. He was a handsome, healthy young man, and his eyes sparkled. The Lord said to Samuel, “This is the one—anoint him!” 13 Samuel took the olive oil and anointed David in front of his brothers. Immediately the spirit of the Lord took control of David and was with him from that day on. Then Samuel returned to Ramah.


unsafe says ---So we see why Shepherds were chosen cause no one looks after their Flock like a Good Shepherd -----and God The Father was the Good Shepherd in the Old Testament who anointed Shepherds of the field to carry out His Will ------


unsafe says ----Angels are God's messengers so the Birth of Jesus would have been announce by angels to the Shepherds who would have been the first chosen to be aware because God the Father was the Good Shepherd in the Old Testament and His Son is now the Good Shepherd who will bring the Good News to the World ------


David says what a Shepherd does well in Psalms 23

Psalm 23 (GW)
A Psalm of David.
1 The Lord is my shepherd.
I am never in need.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside peaceful waters.
3 He renews my soul.
He guides me along the paths of righteousness
for the sake of his name.
4 Even though I walk through the dark valley of death,
because you are with me, I fear no harm.
Your rod and your staff give me courage.

5 You prepare a banquet for me while my enemies watch.
You anoint my head with oil.
My cup overflows.

6 Certainly, goodness and mercy will stay close to me all the days of my life,
and I will remain in the Lord’s house for days without end.

 

[paradox3]

Summary: Luke 2: 21 - 40

1. The newborn is circumcised when 8 days have passed. He is called Jesus, the name given by the angel when He was in the womb.

2. When the time comes for purification, Jesus is brought to Jerusalem and presented in the temple. A sacrifice is offered in accordance with the Law.

3. Simeon, described as righteous and devout, is guided to the temple by the Holy Spirit. He has been told he will not see death until he has seen the Messiah. Simeon takes Jesus in his arms and praises God:

“Master, now you are dismissing your servant in peace,
according to your word;
for my eyes have seen your salvation,
which you have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel.” (v. 29-32)

Mary and Joseph are amazed at what is being said about their son. Simeon goes on to predict that the child will be opposed by many and a sword will pierce Mary's own soul.

4. The prophet Anna begins praise God and to speak about the child to all who were looking for the redemption of Israel.

5. The Holy Family returns to Nazareth, where Jesus grows and becomes strong, filled with wisdom. The favor of God is upon him.

 

[paradox3]

Reflection: Luke 2: 21 - 40

Present day Jews have a ritual for first born sons. I believe the son must also be the first born child in the family and there can be no prior miscarriages. I will look it up later.

Luke is certainly building his case that Jesus is the longed for Messiah. And the song of Simeon tells us He will be both a glory to Israel and a light for the Gentiles.

It is interesting to see the female prophet, Anna.

Jesus is said to grow in similar fashion to the description about John at the end of Luke 1.

 

[Redbaron]

I remember reading a book by John Dominic Crossan, (title escapes me) that does a comparison between the 2 birth stories. He contrasts that parents' status (priestly vs. not) and a few other fa tors; then points out that the one born to the lesser-status parents will outrank the one with the known, honored parents. If I can recall the title, I'll pass it along.

 

[paradox3]

On the walking track this morning, I was contemplating how many older people have appeared so far in the story. Zechariah and Elizabeth. Simeon. The prophet Anna.

Is this a literary device to emphasize the newness Jesus will bring?

 

[paradox3]

Here we go. The ritual I was thinking about is the Pidyon Haben. It occurs 30 days after a birth.

"In Judaism, the ritual of Pidyon Ha-Ben ("Redemption of the Son") is grounded in the Jewish concept that the first and best things belong to God: in Numbers 8:17, God declared: "Every firstborn among the Israelites, man as well as beast, is mine."

According to Jewish beliefs, the God of Judaism has never asked for child sacrifice, but rather required firstborn sons to devote their life to service in the Temple. Parents may "redeem" their sons from this obligation by paying a small sum of money to a kohein (a member of the priestly family).

The ritual of Redemption applies to a relatively small number of children. Only those who are male, have "opened up the womb" (are not delivered by caesarean and do not come after the birth or miscarriage of any other child) and are not descended from the Levites must be redeemed. The exception for Levites originates with the story of the Golden Calf (Numbers 18), in which the faithfulness of the Levites is rewarded with a special role in the Temple."

 

[paradox3]

Luke refers to the time of purification (v. 22). Does this refer to the purification of the mother after giving birth?

Where does the sacrifice come in? Luke tells us the sacrifice of a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons is required by the Law. (v. 24)

 

[BetteTheRed]

Probably just the 'price' of whatever temple ritual equates to a naming ceremony today.

 

[Waterfall]

Luke refers to the time of purification (v. 22). Does this refer to the purification of the mother after giving birth?

Where does the sacrifice come in? Luke tells us the sacrifice of a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons is required by the Law. (v. 24)

How bizarre sacrificing small animals sounds to me .....these days we'd say it was an early sign of a psychopath. Another example of a cultural inheritance. Makes one wonder what we erroneously cling to today.

 

[Seeler]

I remember reading a book by John Dominic Crossan, (title escapes me) that does a comparison between the 2 birth stories. He contrasts that parents' status (priestly vs. not) and a few other fa tors; then points out that the one born to the lesser-status parents will outrank the one with the known, honored parents. If I can recall the title, I'll pass it along.

I also remember reading Crossan's book, but can't remember the title.
If I remember correctly Crossan explains that in the first two chapters of Luke, the writer compares the two birth stories with Jesus always come out on top. John was born to an elderly couple / Jesus was born to a virgin. John's birth was announced to the people but Jesus was announced by angels.

 

[unsafe]

Luke 2:22-24 is describing the Old Testament Law requirement in Leviticus 12 ---

unsafe posting Leviticus 12 here -----

Leviticus 12 (GW)
Instructions for Women after Childbirth
12 The Lord spoke to Moses, 2 “Tell the Israelites: When a woman gives birth to a boy, she will be unclean for seven days. This is the same number of days she is unclean for her monthly period. 3 The boy must be circumcised when he is eight days old. 4 Then she must stay at home for 33 days in order to be made clean from her bleeding. She must not touch anything holy or go into the holy place until the days needed to make her clean are over.

5 “When a woman gives birth to a girl, she will be unclean as in her monthly period. However, she will be unclean for two weeks. Then she must stay at home for 66 days in order to be made clean from her bleeding.

6 “When the days needed to make her clean are over, she must bring a one-year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a pigeon or a mourning dove as an offering for sin. She must bring them to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7 The priest will offer them in the Lord’s presence to make peace with the Lord for her. Then she will be clean from her flow of blood.

“These are the instructions for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she must use two mourning doves or two pigeons. One will be the burnt offering and the other the offering for sin. So the priest will make peace with the Lord for her, and she will be clean.”


unsafe says ----here we are looking at the Mosaic Law --This Law was brought in to show people their sin not to save people -----so no one was justified by God through the Law -----it pointed out sin not only in the moral side of things but also in the ceremonial side ---so parents had to realize that their child that was just born was born with the sin nature ----and so there was a sin offering ----the male was the one who was circumcised ---there was no circumcision for the girl so the time was doubled instead to make it clear that all born have the sin nature -----

We see in verse 23 of Luke 2 AMP ------- the boy was set apart and dedicated to God -----23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy [set apart and dedicated } to the Lord)


unsafe posting here from the Old Testament ----

Exodus 13 (AMP)
Consecration of the Firstborn
13 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Sanctify to Me [that is, set apart for My purpose] every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of animal; it is Mine.”


unsafe says---- so we see Mary and Joseph keeping the Law here -----

 

[Redbaron]

Yes-- it's likely been 20 years since I read the book, I likely still have it on a shelf... somewhere...

 

[paradox3]

Probably just the 'price' of whatever temple ritual equates to a naming ceremony today.

Luke's gospel has the naming of Jesus at the same time as his circumcision, i.e. 8 days after the birth.

The purification and the sacrificing of the turtledoves/ pigeons comes later.