Are we still able to debate fairly?

[Mendalla]

global vaccination against smallpox

Which, by the way, may be coming back. Smallpox vaccine is also effective against monkeypox as are other treatments developed for smallpox.

 

[jimkenney12]

One of the videos from Israel mentioned an issue with side effects from that vaccine. I have not researched what those side effects are.

 

[Luce NDs]

It seems everything had side effects (from looking at pharm ads) and if God is everything in that line of order ... that should send some off at 90 degrees! Thus the yardarm will cast a shadow somewhere even before noon or NU eM that could indicate a fear of psyche or what nous them ... those mines not that well tended ...

They may be devoid as if not tended what so ever ... like denied minds in empire building republics ... as if empires did not go to waste as Timaeus goes in the sans ... without much of the innate tenders! One must put something into nothing for extraction ...

 

[Delightful Life]

I just watched an interesting documentary with that title ( in German). They were looking at how people today seem to tend to have extreme positions and the tendency of families and friendships breaking up over issues like the vaccinations. They had a media specilist and a communications psychologist commenting. One interesting comment with regards to social media and internet in general, was:
Today, scrolling through the social media and the internet for half an hour, one sees a multitude of small and larger conflicts. The social media are living off polarizing to get reactions. They aim at existing archaic instincts in us.

And:
Todays world has never been like this before. We suffer of a constant overdose of world events which constantly confront us with large and small ideologies. Having just browsed through the internet with it’s ongoing aggressive discussions, one carries that constant irritation into one’s own daily life.

A democracy lives off conflicting opinions and debates and requires active tolerance of that tension between them. Only in a dictatorship there is no conflict, because one has to believe and take what is ordered.

There also was an interesting survey they did: they asked Germans : Can one today speak freely of one’s political opinion?
Interesting was the statistics. In the 1950 ties, about 58% said yes. The numbers rose to 78% between the 1960 ties and into the 80 ties, fell to 66% in 2011 and is now in 2021 at 45%. And that despite the fact that Germany is not a dictatorship and every citizen has still the right to free speech. The reason for that perception, so they suggested, was the high publicity through the internet. While in past years, anything said at the pub only stays within a small circle, today, everything is at risk of being put on the internet being scrutinized by others.
( interesting here, too, - my opinion- that the same one who fear that judgement are likely the ones doing it themselves to others)

Solutions to learn to actively learn better debate:
- Imagine there is a human being at the other end of sending the comment
-learn to hold your breath, hesitate and think first, then send your second thought and not your first

Any more suggestions?

Hesitate and think first is always good :3

I think the problems arent just "radical thought"--I think it is deeper and more ordinary than that. Ordinary people that used to be friends and family that used to be able to talk aboot subjects now CONTROVERSY and bizarre reactions. It happened to me and my bro and my dad, it happened to my wife and her two friends who stopped their friendship with one of them over 2016 election and when their mom died they expressed no sympathy. I think it has happened here as well? Bette, me, Redbaron...There is something deeply wrong going on and I don't know why (there is more than one model that I think fits the facts) or how it can be fixed?

Remember that PEW article looking at the progression of polarization in USA since 1996? Taking that as true and applying it to the USA, that means that the majority of US people cannot even understand each other. That is a massive problem. And if that has spread?

That would explain why we had that spate of everything being called Nazi for a while there, even orthodox jews.

So I understand why some people are Othering or Demonizing or even cutting ties? When dealing with that amount of discombobulation? Sometimes the only thing one can do is to cut off the stimulus?

I just dont know why it is happeneing or even the cure.

My door is always open for talk and riffing and such :3

in reality, emotions matter most in current debates and argunments and reason is close to useless with many people.

I have changed my mind over the years and come to the idea more (esp since recent times) that we are very very good thinkers, but we use our emotions? We are as rational ad human beings have always been -- we aren't rational. Its a myth that can be looked at in the SJW sense of it helps the state keep in power? Big pharma, capitalism, brown people being other, etc?

Like when was the last time you bought a vehicle? You walk into the shop. How long do you think it took you to decide the vehicle you wanted? How much of it was conscious?

Similar to political candidates; how do you feel aboot your guy? I still feel warm and fuzzy aboot Obama and Trudeau Sr. I feel icky aboot 45. These affect decisions.

I don't want to vote for people who follow the WEF. Now the WHO is positioning itself to take over world health and dictate everything.
Power corrupts and total power is corrupt. No one knows enough to say they know it all and will keep us healthy. They allow all sorts of things that
pollute so how can that workout? The double talk is that of dictators. I think the PM has been involved and will simply hand us over.
There will be no discussion with the people he is supposed to serve, not rule over.

Funny how politics uses nice words then forgets them once in office. Winning and serving? Win to serve?
It clearly states 'serve' in taking the oath of office. Hmmm.... be careful of rabbit holes.

Hey there :3 Wow. Missed yas!
Its good to be able to criticize, to note where something isn't working while acknowledging what is :3

OTOH, I'm not sure I see that. I like the idea of a global clearing house for health ideas. During the pandemic, I've seen their role not as dictating, but as collecting information and freely providing it to the global medical/healthcare community.

The WHO is an amazing endeavour
And it has some things worthy of criticism and worthy of praise
Like most things human beings have made :3
I even have enjoyed their exploration of 5G relatively recently :3
Science can be fun

In fact, there is a more and more work going on around tailoring drugs to specific cases and persons based on their genetics and other factors. Right now, it is mostly focussed on things like cancer where genetics are a factor in the first place since they feel this will give us the most bang for the buck, but it will likely turn up in other areas, too.

Yeah, I so.like this idea. I think we've jabbered aboot this more than once here? Rita has as well. The idear where we pay a subscription and they take a sample from me and when I need medication they create it just for me. I hear there will be less side effects. So no more billions of side effects from Pfizer vaccine lol

Please explain what happened in Israel that was due to the vaccine.

Bless you for trying to grok Spirit Wind 7's concerns
You are willing to go the extra km
That is something to be encouraged and cherished

I have attached "The Jerusalem Report" from the Children's Health Defense site. There are several reports there in video.
The reporter is a Health Critic. She has reported regularly after the shots were started there. She is accurate and speaks
clearly what is going on in her country.

The Jerusalem Report with llana Rachel Daniel

Help Children’s Health Defense and RFK, Jr. end the epidemic of poor health plaguing our children.

live.childrenshealthdefense.org

I am a member of the Canadian Chapter of The Children's Health Defense. Not that active, but children do need protection. I am trusting the link will work
it isn't blue, but adding might do it. I hope it helps as they have been vaccinated many times since it began there as a trial without the peoples permission.
They were cajoled, tricked and threatened like we were to take it. No way to report adverse results and there were many.
I believe they did find a way to gather reports.

Thank you for trying to explain
Now, your concerns, what are the top 3 sources that best explain your concerns here?
Personally, I don't know or son't know if I can even know how much is intentional shennigans, how much is hysteria, etc?

Whew. Its so good to have my brain back
*Crosses finger equivalents*

 

[jimkenney12]

One factor driving polarization are the culture bubbles being created by social media. There was a time when small numbers of people were in isolated little bubbles. Now hundreds of millions of people are in large culture bubbles where most people share the same information sources and beliefs. This creates the feeling that most people are like them and anybody who disagrees must be brain washed, misinformed, or malevolent. If they persist in disagreeing then they must be brainwashed or malevolent and we certainly do not want to associate with either kind of person.

People in conversation with people in different bubbles understands see the bigger picture and look for ways to initiate real discussions that include respect, careful inquiry, and patience along with accepting that many people will not be able to continue in conversations that challenge core beliefs.

 

[Delightful Life]

One factor driving polarization are the culture bubbles being created by social media. There was a time when small numbers of people were in isolated little bubbles. Now hundreds of millions of people are in large culture bubbles where most people share the same information sources and beliefs. This creates the feeling that most people are like them and anybody who disagrees must be brain washed, misinformed, or malevolent. If they persist in disagreeing then they must be brainwashed or malevolent and we certainly do not want to associate with either kind of person.

People in conversation with people in different bubbles understands see the bigger picture and look for ways to initiate real discussions that include respect, careful inquiry, and patience along with accepting that many people will not be able to continue in conversations that challenge core beliefs.

That is good insight there

At the Godbotherer conference I heard a really cool thing. This new guy I met was talking aboot how his way of convo that he really likes and misses is of people talking and they don't have to agree with their opinion or theology or whatnot. Just listen. He says he finds Americans and American churches to do that much less but he has been lucky to finda church where he fits in. And he came to Jesus as an adult and is kinda sad that it took him and the Holy Spirit so long for him to get here lol
Fascinating guy
And then my Brother who brought me to Christ also thinks that way, of it doesn't matter to him if he shares the beliefs and worldview of whomever he is with

 

[Luce NDs]

Social media is a very different approach to drawing ideas together when not in a social set to start with ... divine bifurcation ... split hoes ...

Does anyone expect people to get along when bought up on a diet of compulsive competition and little agreement about disagreements?

It is not in our line ... diabolically goode is looking for the fallout from the grinder ...

 

[Delightful Life]

I didn't know where to put this
But I think this can be very helpful
Those of you who know of me
Know how I have gone on aboot Reality Tunnels
Or Semantic Grids
Or BS (Belief Systems)
Or Model Agnosticism (after Robert Anton Wilson)
Another friend called it Belief Surfing
Carolla came across another term that I think fits: perspectacles
I have also seen used here Lens

Well here is a clear explanation with examples and I believe ways you can test your own worldview(s)

Understand how other people think: a theory of worldviews.

A libertarian, a socialist, an environmentalist, and a pro-development YIMBY watch an apartment complex being built. The libertarian is pleased - ‘the hand of the market at work!’ - whereas the socialist worries that the building is a harbinger of gentrification; the YIMBY sees progress, but the...

www.clearerthinking.org

Because I think that most of what are seen as problems are really different worldviews colliding

And yes, this happens on WC too. We are human.

Have fun!

 

[jimkenney12]

I think my intrinsic values include pervasive fairness, resilience, and gratitude.

 

[Luce NDs]

I didn't know where to put this
But I think this can be very helpful
Those of you who know of me
Know how I have gone on aboot Reality Tunnels
Or Semantic Grids
Or BS (Belief Systems)
Or Model Agnosticism (after Robert Anton Wilson)
Another friend called it Belief Surfing
Carolla came across another term that I think fits: perspectacles
I have also seen used here Lens

Well here is a clear explanation with examples and I believe ways you can test your own worldview(s)

Understand how other people think: a theory of worldviews.

A libertarian, a socialist, an environmentalist, and a pro-development YIMBY watch an apartment complex being built. The libertarian is pleased - ‘the hand of the market at work!’ - whereas the socialist worries that the building is a harbinger of gentrification; the YIMBY sees progress, but the...

www.clearerthinking.org

Because I think that most of what are seen as problems are really different worldviews colliding

And yes, this happens on WC too. We are human.

Have fun!

This may require a weird escape so that one can look back at what things of naivete led them to where they got in in this alien thing called self ... in ancient Nordic an IHC in othe places and OHC m'n as the former was broken and destroyed hymn self in giggles ... very inappropriate in Hei-Eire circles, by another name tuits ... and one hears: "get out witch awe!"

It settled in Kahn Sus ... as Oz ohm ... being difficult and hard ... tis a remnant of Job ... breaks and holiday are not acceptable in Lo' space ... no room ... post ol eum ... Linus up?

 

[Northwind]

I've just noticed this thread and have read the first page.

This is interesting. I've been concerned about how dissent is being silenced in various ways these days. Using labels, attacks or other tactics to silence dissent leads to an environment that feeds a dictatorship. A healthy relationship needs some conflict to grow. It can't be silenced.

A democracy lives off conflicting opinions and debates and requires active tolerance of that tension between them. Only in a dictatorship there is no conflict, because one has to believe and take what is ordered.

I like these.

Solutions to learn to actively learn better debate:
- Imagine there is a human being at the other end of sending the comment
-learn to hold your breath, hesitate and think first, then send your second thought and not your first

Our school had a debate club as did our university.

I'll read through the thread now.

 

[Northwind]

I've read through the thread and there's a lot to think about. One thing that comes up for me is the concept of "disaster capitalism" where the powers that be take advantage of a crisis in order to push through unpopular policies and such. The crisis can and usually is real. We're distracted and don't see what's happening in the halls of power, whether that power be government or other places like corporations.

So we've just come through a worldwide crisis. The virus was a legitimate threat. The vaccine was desired, created and distributed. We're all tired. We're all suffering from various levels of trauma responses from very mild to severe. What has been going on behind the scenes? Are the higher prices and inflation really legitimate or created? What is happening as we focus on the anniversary of the convoy and the subsequent report? What is happening when we wonder how conmen and grifters become "legitimate" elected officials?

I do see a desire to learn to disagree better. That gives me hope.

I think I need a coffee.....

 

[paradox3]

It can be very valuable to read a thread from top to bottom even if we have been following the conversation as it unfolds.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

But sometimes we need to acknowledge that this happens…

 

[Northwind]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Disagreements are becoming more violent. A man was killed after asking someone to not vape near his children. People in transit systems are feeling less safe. Watching the responses to the indictment of a former president has brought out a lot of crazy. American "leaders" are using fear and disinformation to make their points. Sadly, ours while more "civilized" are following suit in some regards.

It seems that logical fallacies abound. People jump to conclusions based on minimal information and make judgements based on those faulty conclusions. Sometimes it's just not possible to resolve some conflicts. That's sad.

Right now, it is mostly focussed on things like cancer where genetics are a factor in the first place since they feel this will give us the most bang for the buck, but it will likely turn up in other areas, too.

I believe I am benefitting from this technology. Cancer treatment has come a long way. Thank goodness for that.

 

[jimkenney12]

Maybe we are forgetting violence was often used by privileged people in the past. The federal government used violence to end the general strike in Winnipeg. White males frequently used violence in conflicts with Indigenous people with few repercussions for decades. How many freedom riders were beaten and killed by law abiding racists in the states? We had a thirty year window where the reckless use of violence was condemned for the most part. Most people are still opposed to violence. Unfortunately Trump and others approved the use of violence and violent people believe they have permission again to use violence. Many police officers believing the same thing make it more difficult to control violence.

The failure of governments to build societies with hope for everyone builds feelings of anxiety, despair, and anger. The strikes in France snd Germsny are signs the neoliberal agenda has gone too far and workers are ready to push back.

 

[Luce NDs]

Once knowledge and intelligence was put down ... to get back to the dinasaur ways ... hoomans lost it ... the control of hostility, I mean!

Isn't that naivete personified? Some say naivete is immaturity ... perhaps even metaphorical for stronger words. Then the common people are not to use words of that sort!

 

[Northwind]

Maybe we are forgetting violence was often used by privileged people in the past

This is a very good point. Arguably some violence is understandable. Not necessarily right, just understandable.

The failure of governments to build societies with hope for everyone builds feelings of anxiety, despair, and anger. The strikes in France snd Germsny are signs the neoliberal agenda has gone too far and workers are ready to push back.

That's very true. I'm sure there were many in Canada's Freedom Convoy who would fit in this category.

I suppose the part I'm reflecting on more is at the micro level, personal interactions. It seems that when there are disagreements between people there is name calling. There are accusations of no critical thinking skills or of being sheep. There are accusations of gaslighting and ad hominem attacks. These are all part of a process to shut down dissent and is a small reflection of larger society.

 

[jimkenney12]

Anonymity on social media and the continuing creation of new slurs develops poor habits for social interactions and influences people not using those slurs. Our reflex actions are shaped by what other people do.

 

[JayneWonders]

There are cameras everywhere, 24x7 news sites hungry for a sound bite. And people sharing it all.

Doesn't mean there is more violence.

It does mean we are more likely to perceive there is more.