Acts 1:6-14 Jesus Ascends; the Disciples Await the Advocate/Spirit

[BetteTheRed]

Acts 1:6-14 (Jesus ascends; the disciples wait for the Advocate/Spirit)

NSRVUE

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. 11 They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away. 13 When they had entered the city, they went to the room upstairs where they were staying: Peter, and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of[a] James. 14 All these were constantly devoting themselves to prayer, together with certain women, including Mary the mother of Jesus, as well as his brothers.


We used this text in our Lectio Divina study this week. Some interesting points came up, here’s a few questions based on our discussions.

1. It’s clear that the disciples are still expecting the Jewish Messiah – the political winner who will free Israel from oppression; at this point, Rome. Jesus makes it equally clear that he is NOT that figure. What message is Luke trying to pass on?

2. Many find the very 3-tiered cosmology so clearly depicted by this passage comical enough to be distracting. How do you cope with 1st century knowledge in the 21st century?

3. We were intrigued by the concept of a “Sabbath day’s journey away”, particularly when we discovered that the distance described is a mere 1.2 km.

4. What sort of life does “constantly devoting themselves to prayer” entail? We spent a lot of time talking about prayer in action, of “being” prayerfully.

5. “Certain women”. Huh. The casual masculinity of all of our sacred texts disturbs me. Women seem largely to be an afterthought in these texts, an accessory of life that means that men needn’t disturb themselves from their deep work of thinking with such mundane tasks as cooking, laundering, cleaning.

 

[Mendalla]

He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority.

Interesting that here again, Jesus suggests that the apostles, and by extension those who follow his way here in the 21st century, are not to know God's plans. Similar to Matthew 24:36-39 for instance.

36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[h] but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so, too, will be the coming of the Son of Man.

It is a recurring theme in Jesus' teaching, which makes it seem probably he really said something like that, and yet we continue to have people using obtuse interpretations of scripture to try to predict the Second Coming or claim they know the whys and wherefores of the coming judgement.

10 While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. 11 They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

WTF? And no one goes, "Hi, who the heck are you?" And, indeed, who are they? Angels? Nice allusion back to what Jesus just said, though, in their statement that he will "come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

And, of course, Jesus here is announcing Pentecost. Which they do seem to be anticipating here, with them staying together and praying.

“Certain women”. Huh. The casual masculinity of all of our sacred texts disturbs me. Women seem largely to be an afterthought in these texts, an accessory of life that means that men needn’t disturb themselves from their deep work of thinking with such mundane tasks as cooking, laundering, cleaning.

Assuming Luke was Greek as tradition holds, this is quite in character. Women were nothing but household help, sex partners, and baby bearers to the Greeks. The Romans were actually marginally better, with women having some inheritance and other rights. Some of the imperial women were even fairly powerful, though you'll note that there never was a female emperor (though some were the power behind the throne).

 

[paradox3]

AFAIK a Sabbath's day journey was a short journey that was allowed to be undertaken on the Sabbath. Travel was otherwise forbidden

 

[BetteTheRed]

So clearly there were some distance limitations, perhaps internally dictated by the geography of an area?

 

[Redbaron]

WTF? And no one goes, "Hi, who the heck are you?" And, indeed, who are they? Angels? Nice allusion back to what Jesus just said, though, in their statement that he will "come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Maybe it's just a quibble, but they didn't actually see him ascend onto heaven. In this relating of the story, the author writes Jesus disappears into a cloud. They may assume he went into heaven, but it remains unseen and, really, unknown. Maybe the 2 in white robes are reflecting that they didn't see where he went after that, maybe they won't be sure where he will show again? Mysteriously, suddenly, maybe only in hindsight, but Jesus will be there. (sort of like Tom Joad at the end of 'The Grapes of Wrath'?)

 

[paradox3]

The two in white robes remind me of the transfiguration story. Are they Moses and Elijah making another appearance, does anyone think?

John Spong used to delight in poking fun at the three tiered universe. I heard him speak about it on one occasion and he was quite hilarious. For some reason he had Jesus disappearing into the clouds and going into cosmic orbit.

 

[Mendalla]

For some reason he had Jesus disappearing into the clouds and going into cosmic orbit.

So Jesus is Elon Musk?

The three-tiered universe has lost its value as an actual model of reality but is still used spiritually by some pagans and others. Earth is the world described by science, heaven and the underworld are other dimensions where gods, etc. reside. It underlay a lot of religions for thousands of years, though some got more complicated (some Indian universes had infinite levels), so I doubt we'll ever completely see it gone other than as a literal understanding of reality.

Of course, how does Jesus ascending then fit into a "spiritual" or multidimensional understanding of the three-tiered universe? Well, "rising" and vanishing might just be how the transition between dimensions is perceived by three-dimensional beings living in our universe. After all, if I, a three dimensional being, removed a 2D being from their 2D universe, that might well be how it is perceived. And if I entered, or interacted with, that 2D universe, I would be capable of things that would seem miraculous to the 2D beings like changing shaped (depending on what part of me enters their universe) and "disappearing into heaven" (leaving their universe entirely). So just add a dimension. God could be 4 or higher dimensional being so could remove Jesus from our 3D universe in ways that would look miraculous and rather like the ascension to us.

Not saying I think it really happened, but you can conceive of something like the ascension and a kind of three tiered universe that still doesn't break our scientific understanding of our own universe, assuming you accept a hypothesis that includes more than our usual three dimensions of space and one of time (which is quite likely, much of modern cosmology largely assumes at least a fourth physical dimension and string theory has something like 11).

 

[Luce NDs]

Maybe it's just a quibble, but they didn't actually see him ascend onto heaven. In this relating of the story, the author writes Jesus disappears into a cloud. They may assume he went into heaven, but it remains unseen and, really, unknown. Maybe the 2 in white robes are reflecting that they didn't see where he went after that, maybe they won't be sure where he will show again? Mysteriously, suddenly, maybe only in hindsight, but Jesus will be there. (sort of like Tom Joad at the end of 'The Grapes of Wrath'?)

And recall totalitarian militants declare no questions should be asked ... yet! deep in the scripts are word intimating that everything should be questioned for what knowledge is secure there ... the basis of avarice ... as we all strive for control ethereal types quit ... fits the triad of ethos, pathos and logos to allow something to come 4th ... MU çis? Containment required for resonance ... can you see the containment ... Jaerd to be that its Claire? That's Ares ... Eire of dissociation of the whet ... sometimes dwelling as a Wadi ... in the middle eastern washouts ... places that were once awash and fluid ... not so arid 'n humus ... Haggae?

Ole's Torid Telus ... cast so the means are undivulged! get the dig ... it is paradigmatic about insanity ... brae in storm? Blows the Kohl as a Shadow concern!

Down here there is nothing to change because of the solid determinants ... they cannot learn and thus stellar Ra Cycle ... blazing hyperbole? Close to pure Ba'aL; where per was once pure Farsi). Per Zion ... a sum of ions as light is gathered ... unfathomable ...

Reject of the black body reflectors? The night brings on reflection of some type ... Jo' AN ne D'arche! That's Ned! Something to go on ... if not noxious ... containing Amis and amines, ligands? Some disconnected ...

 

[BetteTheRed]

When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

An elderly friend of mine has a chair lift to get him from the front hall up to the main living area of the house. Reading this passage, I just have a vision of Charles in his chair, his legs and lift mechanism disguised by a cloud, ascending up the stairs to the living room...

 

[Mystic]

Maybe it's just a quibble, but they didn't actually see him ascend onto heaven. In this relating of the story, the author writes Jesus disappears into a cloud. They may assume he went into heaven, but it remains unseen and, really, unknown. Maybe the 2 in white robes are reflecting that they didn't see where he went after that, maybe they won't be sure where he will show again? Mysteriously, suddenly, maybe only in hindsight, but Jesus will be there. (sort of like Tom Joad at the end of 'The Grapes of Wrath'?)

During His earthly minister Jesus self-identifies as "the Son of Man" and this title is based on the highly symbolic cloud vision in Daniel 713-14:
"I saw one like a SON OF MAN coming with the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, And He came to the Ancient One (God) and was presented before Him. To Him was given dominion and glory and KINGSHIP, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him... His KINGDOM is one that shall never be destroyed."
So the ascension vision is intended to be a symbolic fulfillment and not as a cosmological statement.

 

[Mystic]

Bette: "5. “Certain women”. Huh. The casual masculinity of all of our sacred texts disturbs me. Women seem largely to be an afterthought in these texts, an accessory of life that means that men needn’t disturb themselves from their deep work of thinking with such mundane tasks as cooking, laundering, cleaning."

"All of these were constantly devoting themselves to prayer, as well as certain women, including Mary the mother f Jesus and His brothers (Acts 1:14)."

On the contrary, Luke could have omitted reference to these women but is instead honoring them as among the founders of the Christian church.
Their participation in the constant prayer vigils produced the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, the event that gave birth to the church.
I know of sexist men who would disparage a certain middle-aged woman by labelling her "a woman of a certain age." So yes. "certain" in English can have a subtle negative connotation, but not in Greek, where it just means "some." Indeed, these women are actually given linear priority over "His brothers."

In fact, Luke is the only Gospel to list the names of 3 itinerant female disciples, among many unnamed other female disciples, during Jesus' public ministry long before the women's vigil at the cross:

"The 12 were with Him, as well as certain women... Mary Magdalene,...Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, Susanna, and many other women who provided for them out of their resources (Luke 8:2-3)."

It was unprecedented in Jesus' day for rabbis to be accompanied by female disciples. These women were the only known source of finanacial support for Jesus and his male disciples! The role of financier is traditionally male.

 

[Nancy]

2. Many find the very 3-tiered cosmology so clearly depicted by this passage comical enough to be distracting. How do you cope with 1st century knowledge in the 21st century?

I need help understanding this.

 

[Luce NDs]

2. Many find the very 3-tiered cosmology so clearly depicted by this passage comical enough to be distracting. How do you cope with 1st century knowledge in the 21st century?

I need help understanding this.

Expose it to the Ra Zors edge? A Thor end ... mankind can so easily be directed to be an ass --- Shakespeare!

Just excessively cheeky when overly esteemed ... metaphor of hubris! Neigh MS follows as the dark form of the great mother ... in reclaim function! Proud as Judean lion beat by a swing 'NG jawbone ... as wort flies ... fermenting? Hebrew in ... Brunne Oz?

Thus flowers are bedded ... to hide embarrassing mire ... that's the dirt or earth! Everything has small images ... wee ide? Initiation as incomplete (Newton on comeback, feedback and reaction to naivete; it is said Newton was an angry sol)! Mortals would not accept gravid bounce ... psyche reflection as hidden in a sophisticated creation that can't observe itself! The parts must be alienated a bit ... portion of time? Absence makes ... well you know ...

Conclusion???? Something's missing on this ide of the mystical domain ... further word of interpretation? As pre declaration: I don't know ... my mother told me! Uphold the stands folks ... keep your men cranked out of their mine ... support blind emotionalism!

Some declare the triangle is composed of pathos, logos and ethos and 4th O's are yet to come ... as squared off ... 2-2's?

 

[Mendalla]

2. Many find the very 3-tiered cosmology so clearly depicted by this passage comical enough to be distracting. How do you cope with 1st century knowledge in the 21st century?

I need help understanding this.

This is where looking at it through the lens of myth comes in. The three-tiered cosmos becomes a representation of a spiritual, rather than literal, reality. At least that's how I would approach it. And, as I pointed out in another post I think, the three-tiered cosmos is not unique to the Judaeo-Christian tradition (e.g. the Norse cosmos is three-tiered) and you can look at how others are understood and interpreted in a modern context as well.

 

[jimkenney12]

Tier 1 is the underworld. Hades. Hell and such. Tier two is this reality. Tier three is the heavenly realm. These have been described and depicted in physical terms for over two thousand years. But in reality there is no underworld and no physical heaven.

 

[Luce NDs]

Pain of learning is hell ... all in the psyche that is .. well disposed? Psycho trashing as dark ... mysterious as to where thoughts (intelligence) disappears ... going down in the abstract domain that Einstein said is non dimensional ... extends to nothing as thin space ... clear? This all obscured in wort ... in some tradition this icon is on a role ... we must play out our part as are's and not w/o! Irresolvable in dense form? Thus esse ends ... as ∫ ends ... befall to amuse secondary gods ... brilliant dance in the blackness of Knight, riders ... expression of alien matters that be struck ... psychotic etude? Breaks in activity prerequisite ...

 

[Mystic]

2. Many find the very 3-tiered cosmology so clearly depicted by this passage comical enough to be distracting. How do you cope with 1st century knowledge in the 21st century?

I need help understanding this.

Consider this 2-part answer:
(1) Your question is addressed by Jesus' self-identification as the Son of Man, an identity inspired by the highly symbolic vision in Daniel 713-14.
In this vision the "one like a son of man" ascends through "the clouds of Heaven" to "the Ancient One" (God) from whom He receives the kingdom of God.
The cloud vision in Acts 1:6-15 fulfills that symbolic vision and therefore is not intended to make any statement about a 3-tiered universe.

(2) The disciples' question in Acts 1:6 about the timetable for the arrival of the kingdom of God has been previously asked by the Pharisees:

"Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and He answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed; nor will they say, "Look, here it is!" or "There it is!" For in fact the kingdom of God is [already] among you." (Luke 17:20-21)."

Jesus' reply implies that the kingdom is not "out there" in a 3-tiered universe, but is rather a spiritual dimension overlapping our own. The kingdom is both present and future for Jesus--future in the sense that we enter this spiritual dimension at death.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is it pride that drives us to state we know everything (god thus isn't needed) and thus the unplanned fallacy! Some say nemesis strikes ... be the death of a mess ... after that Ka Dish ... Cush? Thou to be on the intake ... consummation! Many Cons ...

It is said we haven't seen nothing yet ... too dense? The hole of escape ... pit Tae!

 

[Mystic]

THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM

Unlike progressive Christians, Pentecostals get the main point of 1:6-14--the power to witness imparted by the imminent anointing with the Holy Spirit:

"So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:6-8).”

Progressives feel free to distort and reinvent Jesus' kingdom teaching by reducing it to caring personal relationships.
Kingdom power is about the power of effective Christian witness endued by the experience of the Holy Spirit. Peter's Spirit-anointed witness after the Pentecost outpouring of the Spirit created 3,000 converts (2:41) "and day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved (2:47)."

Jesus and Paul both stress the inextricable link between the presence of God's kingdom and the supernatural manifestation of power:

"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with POWER (Mark 9:1)."
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the (God-) talk of these arrogant people but their POWER; for the kingdom of God depends not on (God-) talk but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

This link is lost on progressives, but it is a major key to the phenomenal growth of global Pentecostalism.

Pentecostals rightly recognize that speaking in tongues accompanies the initial reception of the Holy Spirit in 3 of Luke's 4 examples (Acts 2:4; 10:44-47; 19:5-6). In the 4th case Simon the Magician offers Peter money for the power to bestow the Spirit; so Simon apparently saw ecstatic speech as well when Peter laid on hands for the reception of the Spirit (8:11-20). Unlike progressive Christians, Pentecostals take seriously the fact that Paul's phenomenal evangelistic success depends on imparting spiritual experiences of divine power to his audience:

"My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom but with a DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER; so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the POWER OF GOD (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

Paul scolds the Galatians for replacing their prior experiences of the Spirit and miracles with a dead spiritual legalism:

"Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you EXPERIENCE SO MUCH for nothing?... well then, does God supply yu with the Spirit AND WORK MIRACLES AMONG YOU by your doing the works of the Law, or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"

 

[BetteTheRed]

Actually, there's a Christian Reformed member of our bible study who noted that Pentecost was considered a pre-eminent holiday in her tradition.

The UCCan seems not to have celebrated it much historically, but it's in the lectionary/holy days now.

And you've actually gone into chapter 2, here, mystic. In this passage, we have only the promise of the Spirit.