Extrabiblical Evidence about Jesus in the First 2 Centuries

[Luce NDs]

Should thoughts be rejected with care ... or stashed in a pit? Creating dimples according to relativity theory ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Science has always created powerful weapons in response to our enemies. Nuclear bombs were the icing on the cake.
Jesus has always known this wasn't the answer. "Do not repay evil with evil" and love one another.

When living in a world of lies ... what is a good response? Roman blast ... as'bust or a boob that strikes you side on ... legging it out of 'ere without Pan's ... enough to leave one pensive ...

 

[revjohn]

We are all born tabula raza " a blank slate" so technically we are all atheist at birth.

I don't think tabula rasa has actually ever been proven.

And where someone thinks they have nailed it I am willing to speculate that they don't have the ability to actually communicate with newborns to know what they are actually thinking. I expect there is a lot of educated guessing going on which still falls short of actually knowing.

Does the foetus not experience anything while in utero? And if the feotus does experience something in utero does it not learn or even wonder about that experience? Or is there a switch somewhere which magically turns on when the umbilicus is cut?

And certainly it is a bias of one kind or another to presume that the default setting of any human being must be the rejection of something other or even mystical.

Imagine, prior to the great snip, when nourishment was as simple as being did hunger exist? Or taste? And yet for all of that ready nourishment there is no real need to explain what a breast might be or how it may satisfy. True, before that passage through the waters there was no real need for a breast was there hunger? And who explains to the infant that without the umbilicus present nourishment must come another way and who instructs them on the proper use of swallowing.

The slate may not be completely full. That doesn't mean that it is completely blank either.

What you are asking me to believe is that someone who I assume prior to being religious was using Falsifiability, Logic, Comprehensiveness, Honesty, Replicability, and Sufficiency in there everyday life, suddenly discarded all that and became religious, sorry that's not sensible. Because! Rather than use your intellect, you throw it out the window, that to me is sad and a waste of a life but each to there own.

No confirmation of bias here at all.

 

[Waterfall]

Many intelligent people are religious, believing in God does not exclude using ones intellect, so don't believe everything Dawkins or Hitchens indoctrinates into your brain.

 

[revsdd]

We are all born tabula raza " a blank slate" so technically we are all atheist at birth. However that's not what you're asking. What you are asking me to believe is that someone who I assume prior to being religious was using Falsifiability, Logic, Comprehensiveness, Honesty, Replicability, and Sufficiency in there everyday life, suddenly discarded all that and became religious, sorry that's not sensible. Because! Rather than use your intellect, you throw it out the window, that to me is sad and a waste of a life but each to there own.

None of us are completely guided by reason and logic. We are rational beings but also emotional beings. We act sometime on feelings rather than cold hard logic. Emotions are what make life with living. Embracing faith is not rejecting logic. It is an acceptance of an emotional and subjective experience that complements rather than rejects logic.

 

[Mystic]

Mystic said:
This absurd reply makes me wonder if you grasp the nature of God's grace.
Click to expand...
Absurd or not I grasp the nature of grace be it of God or any other just fine.

Mystic said:

In this and other such examples, the healing is unlikely to have been achieved if the outsider's prayer intervention was not graciously appreciated.
Click to expand...​

Which moves agency from the individual offering the prayer to the individual appreciating the prayer. Where is God's grace in any of that? We are still looking at human agency, humans doing something to effect a cause. In that sense it is about how humans manipulate God into acting as if God has no will of God's own.

John, you do recognize that Jesus and the NT command us to pray for healings and other answers to prayer and that His teaching expects human agency to play a decisive role. Of course, God is sovereign, but your rejection of the need for the right person or persons to pray as God prompts them is such a fundamental distortion of biblical teaching that you seem to discount God's role in prompting chosen individuals to engage in intercessory prayer..and you show that you are close-minded to the actual evidence of how God chooses certain people at certain moments to intercede. So it is natural to conclude that you lack a NT perspective on how God uses chosen vessels to perform miraculous healings. This inconsistency rightly warrants the skepticism I expressed that now gives you offense. It also suggests, as I 've said, that you don't grasp how God's grace is intended to work in his church.

 

[revjohn]

If you want to derail your own thread who am I to be worried about it.

John, you do recognize that Jesus and the NT command us to pray for healings

I do recognize that the scripture exhorts believers to offer prayers of healing. I do not define what healing must look like nor, am I aware of any passage of scripture which does define what healing must look like. If you think you have one put it forward for consideration.

Nor do I consider prayer to be a magic formula or some kind of spiritual form of Tylenol.

Of course, God is sovereign, but

But apparently that is not enough.

your rejection of the need for the right person or persons to pray as God prompts them is such a fundamental distortion of biblical teaching

As you understand it. Which doesn't mean all others must understand it in the same way. I apparently have a different understanding.

that you seem to discount God's role in prompting chosen individuals to engage in intercessory prayer.

I only seem to discount God's role? And how do I do that pray tell? When somebody says "God told me to pray thusly" what is my response? What has been my response?

Try looking around Wondercafe2 for my response to any such claim or, not wanting to waste time in a fruitless search just ask what my response would be.

I will discount the claim that a specific person is required because that takes away from what God is doing and places the credit on someone less than God.

and you show that you are close-minded to the actual evidence of how God chooses certain people at certain moments to intercede.

I haven't been presented with anything remotely resembling evidence of that kind. Which is not me being close-minded so much as it is those who may be making such claims being deliberately vague.

When Thomas said, "I'll believe it when I see it." Jesus offered his hands and his side for inspection.

What have you offered that can be touched in the same manner to accompany your many anecdotes?

So it is natural to conclude that you lack a NT perspective on how God uses chosen vessels to perform miraculous healings.

Natural for you at any rate.

This inconsistency rightly warrants the skepticism I expressed that now gives you offense.

You wish I was offended. Then you could claim "truth hurts" and puff yourself up on being able to read me so well. Evidence actually suggests you haven't been reading me so much as making me the focal point of personal fan fiction.

It also suggests, as I 've said, that you don't grasp how God's grace is intended to work in his church.

Or perhaps I don't grasp how you want to use God's grace.

 

[Luce NDs]

None of us are completely guided by reason and logic. We are rational beings but also emotional beings. We act sometime on feelings rather than cold hard logic. Emotions are what make life with living. Embracing faith is not rejecting logic. It is an acceptance of an emotional and subjective experience that complements rather than rejects logic.

Thus the logic is biased ... some say this is a plot, plan or conspiracy ... and when blind this is not seen by those that wish not to know much!

 

[unsafe]

Hi Mystic ---- your quote -----as I 've said, that you don't grasp how God's grace is intended to work in his church.

Amen to that -----

We can teach on God's Grace for a year and only scratch the surface of His Grace ------Not many Ministers or Priests in my opinion as well Mystic understand the Power and Might of God's Grace in the church or in our personal lives ------God's Grace holds such power and might in all areas of our life ------I have just healed myself from a pulled muscle in my back ---could hardly walk without pain ---couldn't bend ----- my partner had to help dress ----I put up with this for 2 days and said to my partner -----I don't have to put up with this crap -----I went and wrote a prayer for healing on my own ----and I took some pure olive oil from our cupboard which I held up to God and said Thank You Father for this Blessed oil -this is the prayer ------ I had my partner make the sign of the cross over the area that was affected with the oil as I said this prayer

Blessed are you Father for your healing word that bring health and healing to all my flesh
I am the healed protecting my health according to your word I Isaiah 53:5 that says By His Stripes I am healed and made whole
Your Anointed Son Jesus Christ paid the price for my healing and wholeness
He broke the power of Satan on the Cross by the power of His spilled Blood and with the Power and Grace provided to me through the Holy Spirit I apply this Blessed oil that represents your healing Blood on my lower back and I declare I am the healed and made whole according to your word which is your will for my life as according to your word in --Proverbs 4:20-22 NKJV ----
20 My son, give attention to my words;
Incline your ear to my sayings.
21 Do not let them depart from your eyes;
Keep them in the midst of your heart;
22 For they are life to those who find them,
And health to all their flesh.
I thank you for this paid for healing and I accept that I am healed and made whole in the name of your Son Jesus Christ -Amen

I felt a difference right away and I was able to bend and was pain free ----I had no problem after -----

God's Grace is Power and Might in our lives ------Jesus is alive today through His word pray His will not our will -----we need to put it to use ---this is how to make the unbeliever believe ----and if they still don't believe then they are lost in their doubt ---just like Thomas was but he believed when he saw --some will not believe even when they see ----their hearts are hardened to it -----

Merry Christmas to you Mystic

 

[Luce NDs]

If the mortal is not contained by the immortal (eternal) is where they are beyond us that are confined by the infinite?

Did you know that there were only two people that didn't believe in nothing or everything ... and thus what they know is nothing compared to the outlanders ... those on a stretch, or pilgrimage into the unknown !

Thus we can't avoid the fact that we are all restricted to the eternal infinite icon ... deep space ? Sort of like a mental extremity ... far distant from the emotions unless entangled in a mortal place ...

 

[Mystic]

Mystic said:
your rejection of the need for the right person or persons to pray as God prompts them is such a fundamental distortion of biblical teaching
Click to expand...
As you understand it. Which doesn't mean all others must understand it in the same way. I apparently have a different understanding.


Well, Rev. John, I guess this tour of texts is needed:
(1) A captive Jewish girl tells Naaman the Syrian's wife: "If only my master were with the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy (2Kings 5:3)." Elisha proves to be the right faith partner for this cure.

(2) "He [Jesus] gave them [the 12] the authority over unclean spirits to cast them out and to cure every disease and eery sickness (Matthew 10:1)." The 12 , not Jesus' other disciples, are the right prayer partners for this mission.

(3) More to the point, in Acts 8:12-16, Philip is called to perform miracles among the Samaritans, but not to serve as God's agent for imparting the Holy Spirit. That role is left for Peter and John. So Philip is the right prayer partner for the performance of miracles in Samaria and Peter and John are the right prayer partners for the bestowal of the Spirit.

(4) The paradigm model for Healing in the Church: Paul teaches that specific individuals are called on certain occasions to mediate healing and other miracles: "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good...to another gifts of healing by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles (1 Cor 12:7-9)." The Spirit determines "the right prayer partner in each situation. The testimonies I have shared illustrate Paul's teaching as expressed here.

(5) "Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anokinting them with oil in the name of the Lord. The prayer of faith will save the sick and the Lord will raise them up (James 4:14-16)." Here, the elders can be the right prayer partners, if they anoint the sick with oil and pray with real faith.

And a Merry Christmas to you too, Unsafe. I admire your courage and your passionate defense of the faith.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is the spirit light or dark ... abstract or having just floated out of here like a drifter ... a flaky persona? Stoics are sticklers about separating these and thus lack of greis mat Tia ... Tae-A being a nonmaterial crossing! Gets one into the pits of false rejection or fall soude ... as we can't talk about sects here due to despised sense of strange cults ...

Fifty shades of greis or verti goes ... a strand up construct sometimes known as ET ... casting Shadows in unseen places for Hur hoo didn't really care as long as he and his essence was had ... just for plagiarism ... copy maqon? Happens when in the ditch or rut ... a low point of cognizance ... quite poetic really ... in a virtual way if you're the one inuit ...

 

[unsafe]

Mystic ---your quote ----- I admire your courage and your passionate defense of the faith.

My Passion comes from my belief in the world being alive and active and knowing the Word Works as it says it does -----I put the word into action and it hasn't disappointed me yet ----I do as it says -----the Bible is an instruction Booklet to follow ----it has instructions on how to be in health ---how to succeed in life ---how to keep the weeds out of our good soil to get a great harvest -----how to treat others and that includes our enemies ---how to Love others ----how to stay out of depression and what to do when you are depressed -----how to have peace beyond all human understanding -how to have joy -----how to pray and get answers -----how to trust ---how to give without fear of being in lack ---how to get the Blessing so we can bless others -----how to keep fear at bay ----- on and on we go ------all instructions provided -----to follow and get the right results ----all accomplished on the Cross ----God's Grace---power and might ready and available to all who accept His Son ----Ours to put into action by following the word and doing what it says ------but we are to busy arguing and fussing over -----who cherry picks scripture -----who wrote the Bible ---when was it written --can't be true copied by humans ----changing the words ----no such person as a mystical Jesus -----no water walking --no healings --etc --etc --etc ---we would rather argue and complain about the word then we would try to do the word cause that would take work and we are all to busy to put the word into action ---we just like to talk and argue about the word not walk the word -------

 

[Jaebius]

I don't think tabula rasa has actually ever been proven.

And where someone thinks they have nailed it I am willing to speculate that they don't have the ability to actually communicate with newborns to know what they are actually thinking. I expect there is a lot of educated guessing going on which still falls short of actually knowing.

Does the foetus not experience anything while in utero? And if the feotus does experience something in utero does it not learn or even wonder about that experience? Or is there a switch somewhere which magically turns on when the umbilicus is cut?

And certainly it is a bias of one kind or another to presume that the default setting of any human being must be the rejection of something other or even mystical.

Imagine, prior to the great snip, when nourishment was as simple as being did hunger exist? Or taste? And yet for all of that ready nourishment there is no real need to explain what a breast might be or how it may satisfy. True, before that passage through the waters there was no real need for a breast was there hunger? And who explains to the infant that without the umbilicus present nourishment must come another way and who instructs them on the proper use of swallowing.

The slate may not be completely full. That doesn't mean that it is completely blank either.



No confirmation of bias here at all.

I'd like to speak to the question of us all being atheists at birth. I don't know if that's true. We're certainly not anti-theists. Personally, I was baptized within the first year of my life.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I'd like to speak to the question of us all being atheists at birth. I don't know if that's true. We're certainly not anti-theists.

Atheist means "Without God". Are we with god, No! But we are open to anything, however should we impose our beliefs on our children?

Personally, I was baptized within the first year of my life.

What would you be had you had no religious influences until you were say thirteen, (adolescence) then you would be able to decide for yourself. Whether religion were true or not. But sadly you weren't given that choice. It isn't a good thing to claim you were baptised in the first year.
That is inculcation/indoctrination of an innocent, totally wrong! It is almost child abuse.
You were forced to be a slave to the system.
Don't you think it would be much fairer to be given a choice?

 

[Seeler]

Atheist means "Without God". Are we with god, No! But we are open to anything, however should we impose our beliefs on our children?What would you be had you had no religious influences until you were say thirteen, (adolescence) then you would be able to decide for yourself. Whether religion were true or not. But sadly you weren't given that choice. It isn't a good thing to claim you were baptised in the first year.
That is inculcation/indoctrination of an innocent, totally wrong! It is almost child abuse.
You were forced to be a slave to the system.
Don't you think it would be much fairer to be given a choice?

Pavlos - do you mind if I ask you some questions?
You speak of parents 'indoctrinating' their children, and refer to it as almost child abuse. Do you believe that parents should not be permitted to share their religious beliefs with their children? take them to church? teach them in their home? If not actually teaching them, should they be permitted to expose their children to their religion by allowing the childreen to observe religious practices in the home (Bible reading, grace at meals, prayer or meditation)?

 

[unsafe]

No where in the Bible does it say Baby Baptism brings us to God --------I believe Baby Baptism is a Religious Tradition ---man made ---more for the parents saying you will bring your Children up teaching them about God and His Word which for most parents is a big farce ---many don't expose their children to God or His Word after their baby is Baptised and many they never enter a church again ---the scripture is clear on Children that until they have full knowledge of right and wrong ---they are innocent in God's eyes ----according to scripture -----

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Pavlos - do you mind if I ask you some questions?
You speak of parents 'indoctrinating' their children, and refer to it as almost child abuse. Do you believe that parents should not be permitted to share their religious beliefs with their children? take them to church? teach them in their home? If not actually teaching them, should they be permitted to expose their children to their religion by allowing the childreen to observe religious practices in the home (Bible reading, grace at meals, prayer or meditation)?

I am of the opinion that children should be allowed to be children. Until they are fully able to comprehend what it is that is being asked of them, around the age of thirteen. Until then we should be only teaching them the basics reading, writing, and arithmetic.
Children are open books and easily lead. Why should your belief, groups, teams etc; Become what your child has if the child is not able to make a discernible choice. Isn't fairer to give them that choice when that are able to make such a choice? indoctrinating or inculcating isn't choice it's abuse. Children aren't born racist that become racist through their parents or groups.

We are never going to be able to stop all indoctrination. Patriotism is one that is hard to counter.
I am English, however I am human first and foremost. The world is my country. I hate no man, no matter what colour, country or creed. I will protect myself and my immediate family, but I will not take up arms for another man's god or pleasure. too much death comes from religion. Religion is an incitement to violence, a book professing the love of god for man should not contain words like kill, war, hate, etc.. I have a deep disdain for all religions but not for there adherents, they are merely indoctrinated victims.

 

[revsdd]

Atheist means "Without God". Are we with god, No! But we are open to anything, however should we impose our beliefs on our children?What would you be had you had no religious influences until you were say thirteen, (adolescence) then you would be able to decide for yourself. Whether religion were true or not. But sadly you weren't given that choice. It isn't a good thing to claim you were baptised in the first year.
That is inculcation/indoctrination of an innocent, totally wrong! It is almost child abuse.
You were forced to be a slave to the system.
Don't you think it would be much fairer to be given a choice?

So Jae's faith is dismissed because he had religious influence when he was growing up and was baptized as a child, and that was tantamount to child abuse and therefore he had no choice (which is an insane position since people who were raised with religious influence and baptized as children often choose not to be religious.) On the other hand, my faith is dismissed because I had no religious influence growing up (depending on which member of my family you spoke to they were either indifferent to or hostile toward religion) and came to faith and made the choice to be baptized as an adult and so because of that you consider me to be "sad." Any subjective experience that leads to faith is dismissed on the basis that it defies logic. The use of objective evidence that convinces a person to be a person of faith is dismissed because the objective evidence isn't convincing enough for you. You leave no point of discussion available to anyone unfortunately - not because your "logic" dismisses all avenues of conversation, but because of your personal bias. But you can't be biased because you make decisions only on the basis of logic. Subjective experience, emotion, feeling or intuition (or, to put it in legal terms, circumstantial evidence) have no role in your life whatsoever. In other words, you, sir, are a Vulcan - although even the Vulcans had spiritual beliefs. I've never particularly believed in extraterrestrial life, but you may convince me.

 

[Jaebius]

No where in the Bible does it say Baby Baptism brings us to God --------I believe Baby Baptism is a Religious Tradition ---man made ---more for the parents saying you will bring your Children up teaching them about God and His Word which for most parents is a big farce ---many don't expose their children to God or His Word after their baby is Baptised and many they never enter a church again ---the scripture is clear on Children that until they have full knowledge of right and wrong ---they are innocent in God's eyes ----according to scripture -----

Jesus told his disciples to baptize all nations unsafe. All means all. If you'd like to discuss this further, how about creating a new thread.