Grace and the Law

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Hi Rev John--It seems we had the problem over John 3:16 . So John why not carry this a bit more into JOHN . I believe it explains it"s self.

3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

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Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

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Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

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Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

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Jhn 3:20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

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Jhn 3:21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.
 
airclean33 said:
Hi Rev John--It seems we had the problem over John 3:16 .

I think our problem began when you decided to call me a liar.

You should know that quoting scripture and hoping that I will magically interpret it your way is a dead end. Still, since you think that works for you allow me to respond in kind.

airclean33 said:
3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

God loves and God gives. Both proceed belief.

airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

God sends the Son. The world is saved through the Son

airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

There was no condemnation prior to belief? Everybody was spiritually neutral at that point? Or were we dead in our sins? If dead how do we come to belief without God rousing us? Where we just pretending? Only faking death so that we could fool God into thinking he really saved us or, does God really save us?

airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And loving the darkness and hating the light they just decided to embrace the light all on their own? God had nothing to do with it?

airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Does not come to the light, of course, should not be interpreted as does not come to the light right? Because as you point out you believe you came to the light and you believed and then earned the Holy Spirit right? Still, if the scripture is to be trusted and every one hates the light and does not come to the light how then do they come to believe without the light? Some light of their own perhaps?

airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

Wait! Now someone does what is true. Is that John not remembering what he wrote just a moment earlier? Where once it was every one hating the light and not coming to the light it is now possible for someone to come to the light. How does that happen? How does anyone who hates the light and stays away from the light suddenly find themselves in the light? Is it something that they do? Or does the light find them?
 
Perhaps this is whiz-dumb of the quick and simple desire that fails to understand the water-cycle, air-cycle and fire-cycle that can affect the very complex stones on which we stand ... and yet expect instant gratification! Tres vite ... right like perhaps as complex explanation of giving love instead of receiving and thus the substitution of knowledge where the emotional baggage was lost ... alas those not understanding the full field of the communications of everything (god) .. would say alien tongues and strange knowledge is evil ... and we're fixed upon that, institutionalized?

perhaps as I'm told ... I'y am odd, peculiar and too happy to see the verge of reality of this system with a virtual system ...

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son" ... a delight while in a place mostly devoted to worshiping dark, formless void ... un-knowing souls?
 
Is that a flat out humour of the Shadow personality that follows everything with doubt that this light absorbing character is associated with virtues ... or just a virtual reality ... as incarnation ... not the way it appears!

Reminds me of Harper ... an icon of religiosity?!
 
I would like to share an exert of a supplication called Dua Kumayl that we read on nights like this, meaning Thursday nights. It captures a lot of the Islamic conception of Grace/Law/Sin/Repentance to which I adhere.

Naturally, I am not sharing it for us to agree. ;) Rather, it is for us to grow by listening to each other.

I shared the Arabic original text, knowing that many of you, if not all, cannot read it. However, I shared it nonetheless to symbolize the truth that by accepting each other as welcoming bridges, we can provide each other entry into realms that may be otherwise inaccessible.

May the Grace of God shower upon all of us every more softly and sweetly. May our hearts grow ever more in their capacity to receive, comprehend and mirror His Grace till eternity. :)

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
In the Name of God, the All-merciful, the All-compassionate

اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْألُكَ بِرَحْمَتِكَ الَّتِي وَسِعَتْ كُلَّ شَيٍْء
O God, I ask You by Your mercy/grace, which encompasses all things;

وَبِقُوَّتِكَ الَّتِي قَهَرْتَ بِهَا كُلَّ شَيٍْء
And by Your strength, through which You dominates all things,

وَخَضَعَ لَهَا كُلُّ شَيٍْء
And toward which all things are humble

وَذَلَّ لَهَا كُلُّ شَيٍْء
And before which all things are lowly;

وَبِجَبرُوتِكَ الَّتِي غَلَبْتَ بِهَا كُلَّ شَيٍْء
And by Your invincibility through which You overwhelm all things,

وَبِعِزَّتِكَ الَّتِي لا يَقُومُ لَهَا شَيْءٌ
And by Your might, which nothing can resist;

وَبِعَظَمَتِكَ الَّتِي مَلأَتْ كُلَّ شَيٍْء
And by Your tremendousness, which has filled all things;

وَبِسُلْطَانِكَ الَّذِي عَلاَ كُلَّ شَيٍْء
by Your force, which towers over all things;

وَبِوَجْهِكَ الْبَاقِي بَعْدَ فَنَاءِ كُلِّ شَيٍْء
And by Your face, which subsists after the annihilation of all things,

وَبِأَسْمَائِكَ الَّتِي مَلأَتْ أَرْكَانَ كُلِّ شَيٍْء
And by Your Names, which have filled the foundations of all things;

وَبِعِلْمِكَ الَّذِي أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَيٍْء
And by Your knowledge, which contains all things;

وَبِنُورِ وَجْهِكَ الَّذِي أَضَاءَ لَهُ كُلُّ شَيٍْء
And by the light of Your face, through which all things are illumined!

يَا نُورُ يَا قُدُّوسُ
O Light! O All-holy!

يَا أَوَّلَ الأَوَّلِينَ
O First of those who are first

وَيَا آخِرَ الآخِرِينَ
And O Last of those who are last!

اللَّهُمَ اغْفِرْ لِي الذُّنُوبَ الَّتِي تَهتِكُ الْعِصَمَ
O God, forgive me those sins which tear apart safeguards!

اللَّهُمَ اغْفِرْ لِي الذُّنُوبَ الَّتِي تُنْزِلُ النِّقَمَ
O God, forgive me those sins which draw down adversities!

اللَّهُمَ اغْفِرْ لِي الذُّنُوبَ الَّتِي تُغيِّرُ النِّعَمَ
O God, forgive me those sins which alter blessings!

اللَّهُمَّ اغْفِرْ لِي الذُّنُوبَ الَّتِي تَحْبِسُ الدُّعَاءَ
O God forgive me those sins which hold back supplication!

اللَّهُمَّ اغْفِرْ لِي الذُّنُوبَ الَّتِي تَقْطَعُ الرََّّجَاءَ
O God forgive me those sins which cut down the hopes!

اللَّهُمَّ اغْفِرْ لِي الذُّنُوبَ الَّتِي تُنْزِلُ البَلاءَ
O God, forgive me those sins which draw down tribulation!

اللَّهُمَّ اغْفِرْ لِي كُلَّ ذَنْبٍ أَذْنَبْتُهُ وَكُلَّ خَطِيئَةٍ أَخْطَأْتُهَا
O God, forgive me every sin I have committed and every mistake I have made!

اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيْكَ بِذِكْرِكَ
O God, verily I seek nearness to You through remembrance of You,

وَأَسْتَشْفِعُ بِكَ إِلَي نَفْسِكَ
And I seek intercession from You with Yourself,

وَأَسْألُكَ بِجُودِكَ أَن تُدْنِيَنِي مِن قُرْبِكَ
And I ask You through Your munificence to bring me near to Your proximity,

وَأَن تُوزِعَنِي شُكْرَكَ
And to provide me with gratitude toward You

وَأَن تُلْهِمَنِي ذِكْرَكَ
And to inspire me with Your remembrance.
 
@Jihad Mohammad Hyjazie

What strikes me is the preponderance of concern for the term "all things" then there are people that would eliminate much of this extensive concept ... so they wouldn't have to listen to everything ... a denial of that white noise going on between the ears ... a confined or eliminated BUZZ that could erupt in a bad way if confined?

Then there is that axiom ... recognize the stranger ... could be an angel ... in black or white ... night or dais ... that's the word in scripted strange form ... something to know ... as the bible stresses alien words, strange languages as where god goes (Allah) to hide thoughts some people wish not to know! In Hindi concerns it is Vas Ti ... a very large "connecting" ... ignored by Nazi's who cranked the winds of time the wrong way and returned to brute power ... can such things be passed on ... regenerated without thought?

Sometimes if we just shut up and listen ... does the graduated affair appear as Jacobean Latter Saint ... a thought following the action of doing what one pleases ... resulting in fore thought ... prescience ... that sensation that you could see something coming before it struck yah ...

Thank you for that silent strange script ... along with high brewing Aramaic input ... the human story is endless ... goes on and on as the ancient Gael states; allez? Go in piece or pieces if dematerialized ... the essence is immaterial and not real thought to those living solely on "physical" desire ... some strange intelligence enters the frey ... free dumb? There are variants ... spectres that gather thoughts ... the ghosts of wisdom that haunt?

Metaphysics ... approaching thoughts!
 
Good morning John -- Your post --
airclean33 said:
Hi Rev John--It seems we had the problem over John 3:16 .
I think our problem began when you decided to call me a liar.

Airclean--I believe you will find I stated, what you had posted was a lie.

A lie to me is when some one stats something that is against . what is GODS Word . That I possed to you to look at, showing why I felt what you posted was on true. You could have posed back ok I was mistaken. Or I see it different. I would then have ask you to explain. You how ever chose a different tact.
 
John your post---
airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Does not come to the light, of course, should not be interpreted as does not come to the light right? Because as you point out you believe you came to the light and you believed and then earned the Holy Spirit right? Still, if the scripture is to be trusted and every one hates the light and does not come to the light how then do they come to believe without the light? Some light of their own perhaps?

Airclean--John why would you think I believe YOU come to the light of your own. We who are in sin. I believe we are drawn to the Light By GOD.The Plan of salvation is GODS not mind or your"s.
 
John Your Post--
airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

---John--
Wait! Now someone does what is true. Is that John not remembering what he wrote just a moment earlier? Where once it was every one hating the light and not coming to the light it is now possible for someone to come to the light. How does that happen? How does anyone who hates the light and stays away from the light suddenly find themselves in the light? Is it something that they do? Or does the light find them?

--Airclean--I find no problem with the Apostle John's writing here . As he through the Holy Spirit explains, the walk with GOD.But he who dose what is true. Only GOD knows what is true John not you or I . For a person who is doing that which is true must be working with GOD.--- that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.
That he comes to the light to show GOD his deeds with no fear. Shows what John is saying he is doing GODS will.
 
John Your Post--
airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

---John--
Wait! Now someone does what is true. Is that John not remembering what he wrote just a moment earlier? Where once it was every one hating the light and not coming to the light it is now possible for someone to come to the light. How does that happen? How does anyone who hates the light and stays away from the light suddenly find themselves in the light? Is it something that they do? Or does the light find them?

--Airclean--I find no problem with the Apostle John's writing here . As he through the Holy Spirit explains, the walk with GOD.But he who dose what is true. Only GOD knows what is true John not you or I . For a person who is doing that which is true must be working with GOD.--- that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.
That he comes to the light to show GOD his deeds with no fear. Shows what John is saying he is doing GODS will.

This is what RevJohn said , and its not a Lie its the Truth

"This demonstrates that water (the grace of God) does fall into polluted containers (fallen humanity). That is indeed a Christian belief."

is the Holy Spirit not working in humanity right now on this Planet? are we not polluted in sin ?

what is so hard to understand brother?
 
This is what RevJohn said , and its not a Lie its the Truth

"This demonstrates that water (the grace of God) does fall into polluted containers (fallen humanity). That is indeed a Christian belief."

is the Holy Spirit not working in humanity right now on this Planet? are we not polluted in sin ?

what is so hard to understand brother?
--Hi Blackbelt -- I believe that when the holy Spirit comes into Humankind. That persons spirit is clean ,not just cleaned but holy. Now if you and John are talking of the flesh . It is not holy . Now I believe GODS Holy Spirit comes into yours. If you think different please show.
 
Think Blackbelt what your saying. Jesus The Christ was fully human . Was He evil?Did He not make the flesh obey ?So his flesh also became perfect and so could be used as the sin sacrifice .You must receive Christ Jesus as Lord . Before you receive the infilling of GODS Holy Spirit I believe. Please note the Human flesh is not changed in mankind.
 
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--Hi Blackbelt -- I believe that when the holy Spirit comes into Humankind. That persons spirit is clean ,not just cleaned but holy. Now if you and John are talking of the flesh . It is not holy . Now I believe GODS Holy Spirit comes into yours. If you think different please show.

the Holy Spirit may come in you and over you , you are still sinful human nature,

John 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment.

here is HS working in a sinful world
 
airclean33 said:
That persons spirit is clean ,not just cleaned but holy. Now if you and John are talking of the flesh . It is not holy . Now I believe GODS Holy Spirit comes into yours. If you think different please show.

Please note that the conversation began about grace. And the comment which upset you was grace (water) being poured into polluted containers (humanity).

You decided that we weren't talking about grace but rather the Holy Spirit. And then you launched into the venture of how I was lying.

Since then I have tried to stay with the words I used on the topic I was discussing. You have run down the rabbit hole you made for yourself with such preposterous notions that I don't preach the cross and that I am a universalist.

If your spirit is as clean and holy as you believe it to be perhaps you should let your spirit participate in more of the conversation. Because if all of the allegations you are making belong to your flesh it is in serious need of disciplinie.

And you can't tell me that what I am saying is a lie without implying that I am la liar. It is the same as suggesting I'm a drunk when you ask what I have been drinking.
 
Think Blackbelt what your saying. Jesus The Christ was fully human . Was He evil?Did He not make the flesh obey ?So The flesh also became perfect

no His Flesh was not perfect, Jesus Aged , just like us, and that is the very beauty of my God


You must receive Christ Jesus as Lord . Before you receive the infilling of GODS Holy Spirit I believe.

Gods Spirit not only infills but also works out side of man, HS go's where He wills
 
John your post---
airclean33 said:
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Jhn 3:20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Does not come to the light, of course, should not be interpreted as does not come to the light right? Because as you point out you believe you came to the light and you believed and then earned the Holy Spirit right? Still, if the scripture is to be trusted and every one hates the light and does not come to the light how then do they come to believe without the light? Some light of their own perhaps?

Airclean--John why would you think I believe YOU come to the light of your own. We who are in sin. I believe we are drawn to the Light By GOD.The Plan of salvation is GODS not mind or your"s.


Now if God is the primal darkness is this a sin against the light in mono-vision ... perhaps a dualistic perspective would be better with some grey matter in the Dural Saac? Could this define on which side of that thin line that divides Genesis from insanity of a book supposedly defining and indeterminate love that is quantum ... or occurs by chance?

Few people understand such things and thus allowing the word indeterminate, abstract or eternal things to learn ... one step at a time dear light Jesus ... some go off in a flare of madness ... like Isis the ancient Aramaic conjugative ... the sublime fey body? If not honored it can take flight ... with limits on bothe sides of the supposed equine ... stalls? Equitable portions as icons of something yet unclear due to foggy learning process?
 
May the darkness assist us to see a Nous Deis ... so for now say A'deos eM Egos and we drift off into the unconscious ...

It has a linguistic of imaginary proportion ... huge and severely condensed by redaction to periods ... especially when misplaced ... causes great confusion like Hebrews ... one has to envision huge depths ... eternal adepts?
 
the Holy Spirit may come in you and over you , you are still sinful human nature,

John 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment.

here is HS working in a sinful world
--Hi Blackbelt -Why use John16:8 .We who have received Christ Jesus as Lord and have GODS promise of His Holy Spirit are not of the world. We belong to GODS Kingdom.
 
--Hi Blackbelt -Why use John16:8 .We who have received Christ Jesus as Lord and have GODS promise of His Holy Spirit are not of the world. We belong to GODS Kingdom.


feel free to ignore the rest of scripture , you are not interested in honest dialog , your interested in being right
 
What sort of light have we received from monarchists ... not allowed a response or reaction that we learn is natural to the actions ... under natural laws ... such things disbanded by oligarchs under the law that common people be still ... i.e. shut up or the Red Que-ine 'll get cha ... by bloody rights of imposed fear!
 
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