airclean33
Well-Known Member
You right there Rev. The Torah is The Jewish Bible . The Talmud Is how it's Read by the Rabbi. I believe.
Grace and the Law
- Thread starter Waterfall
- Start date
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You right there Rev. The Torah is The Jewish Bible . The Talmud Is how it's Read by the Rabbi. I believe.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
You're quite right, revsdd. They're still sort of analogous to me, and I still think that appropriating the "Old Testament" without the commentary was a little disingenuous of the early Church and certainly makes the text less understandable to those who would wrestle with it.
Jihad Mohammad Hyjazie
Active Member
Very interesting question Waterfall. Really cool responses everyone... I am thinking.
Here are some of the initial thoughts I have:
-Law and Grace are inseperable. God's Law is nothing but Grace and God's Grace is Law.
-We are like containers that are in total poverty for God's Grace. The rain of His Grace is always showering. Our role is to not have our containers turned upside down and to increase the capacity of intake of our containers through the pursuit of virtue, righteousness and ultimately knowledge.
-Law is a manual to show how to have our 'containers' turned in the right direction and how to increase our capacity to gain more of God's Grace.
-Sin is when one creates a barrier between oneself and God's Grace. It is not that God's Grace stopped showering. Rather it is that we have turned away. It is a power that God gave us through free will. Repentance is the way to restore our connection with God's Grace.
-Intercession of those near to God (like the Word of God, Jesus son of Mary) on our behalf is a very important and powerful manifestation of God's Grace that should be sought. The way to seek God's Grace through intercession is conditional upon being the most aligned, within one's sincere capacity, with the values, morals, principles and code of conduct of the intercessor in question. The Law helps us with this alignment.
-The Law (meanings the basic line of dos and don't) are the 'zero line'. This is not sufficient to grow to full potential. There is a need to go beyond the Law (without breaking it). I believe Jesus son of Mary proclaimed to humanity that humankind was ready to be challenged in this way. Hence, there is the laws of wisdom, of lovingkindness, the laws of how to gain deeper inner purity, the laws of how to gain people's hearts, the laws of genuine pursuit of knowledge. It is a level up.
I would like to share some insight from the Quran on this point. It is translated by Quli Qara'i as follows. Note that Allah is a proper name for God in Islam. To learn more about the root meaning of this word refer to the Edward Lane lexcion on this page (http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=h43,ll=11...29,mht=19,msb=15,tla=24,amj=37,ens=1,mis=2006). Look for what is under (اله).
When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah/God gives you the good news of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, distinguished in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near [to Allah/God]. (45)
He will speak to the people in the cradle and in adulthood, and will be one of the righteous.’ (46) She said, ‘My Lord, how shall I have a child seeing that no human has ever touched me?’ He said, ‘So it is that Allah/God creates whatever He wishes. When He decides on a matter He just says to it ‘‘Be!’’ and it is. (47) He will teach him the Book and wisdom, the Torah and the Evangel, (48) and [he will be] an apostle to the Children of Israel, [and he will declare,] “I have certainly brought you a sign from your Lord: I will create for you the form of a bird out of clay, then I will breathe into it, and it will become a bird by God’s leave. I heal the blind and the leper and I revive the dead by God’s leave. I will tell you what you have eaten and what you have stored in your houses. There is indeed a sign in that for you, should you be faithful. (49) And [I come] to confirm [the truth of] that which is before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of the things that were forbidden you. I have brought you a sign from your Lord; so be wary of God and obey me. (50)
Hence, the Quran confirms that the Evangel (that which was brought by Jesus) makes lawful "some of the things that were forbidden" before to the Children of Israel but the spirit and core of the law in my understanding should remain mostly in tact.
This passage from the Bible is very profound to me. It is translated in King James Version as follows:
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Here are some of the initial thoughts I have:
-Law and Grace are inseperable. God's Law is nothing but Grace and God's Grace is Law.
-We are like containers that are in total poverty for God's Grace. The rain of His Grace is always showering. Our role is to not have our containers turned upside down and to increase the capacity of intake of our containers through the pursuit of virtue, righteousness and ultimately knowledge.
-Law is a manual to show how to have our 'containers' turned in the right direction and how to increase our capacity to gain more of God's Grace.
-Sin is when one creates a barrier between oneself and God's Grace. It is not that God's Grace stopped showering. Rather it is that we have turned away. It is a power that God gave us through free will. Repentance is the way to restore our connection with God's Grace.
-Intercession of those near to God (like the Word of God, Jesus son of Mary) on our behalf is a very important and powerful manifestation of God's Grace that should be sought. The way to seek God's Grace through intercession is conditional upon being the most aligned, within one's sincere capacity, with the values, morals, principles and code of conduct of the intercessor in question. The Law helps us with this alignment.
-The Law (meanings the basic line of dos and don't) are the 'zero line'. This is not sufficient to grow to full potential. There is a need to go beyond the Law (without breaking it). I believe Jesus son of Mary proclaimed to humanity that humankind was ready to be challenged in this way. Hence, there is the laws of wisdom, of lovingkindness, the laws of how to gain deeper inner purity, the laws of how to gain people's hearts, the laws of genuine pursuit of knowledge. It is a level up.
I would like to share some insight from the Quran on this point. It is translated by Quli Qara'i as follows. Note that Allah is a proper name for God in Islam. To learn more about the root meaning of this word refer to the Edward Lane lexcion on this page (http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=h43,ll=11...29,mht=19,msb=15,tla=24,amj=37,ens=1,mis=2006). Look for what is under (اله).
When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah/God gives you the good news of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, distinguished in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near [to Allah/God]. (45)
He will speak to the people in the cradle and in adulthood, and will be one of the righteous.’ (46) She said, ‘My Lord, how shall I have a child seeing that no human has ever touched me?’ He said, ‘So it is that Allah/God creates whatever He wishes. When He decides on a matter He just says to it ‘‘Be!’’ and it is. (47) He will teach him the Book and wisdom, the Torah and the Evangel, (48) and [he will be] an apostle to the Children of Israel, [and he will declare,] “I have certainly brought you a sign from your Lord: I will create for you the form of a bird out of clay, then I will breathe into it, and it will become a bird by God’s leave. I heal the blind and the leper and I revive the dead by God’s leave. I will tell you what you have eaten and what you have stored in your houses. There is indeed a sign in that for you, should you be faithful. (49) And [I come] to confirm [the truth of] that which is before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of the things that were forbidden you. I have brought you a sign from your Lord; so be wary of God and obey me. (50)
Hence, the Quran confirms that the Evangel (that which was brought by Jesus) makes lawful "some of the things that were forbidden" before to the Children of Israel but the spirit and core of the law in my understanding should remain mostly in tact.
This passage from the Bible is very profound to me. It is translated in King James Version as follows:
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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My understanding is that there is nothing we have to do to receive God's grace. Grace is receiving what we don't deserve . Why would we even have to be "aligned" in order for God to give it to us?
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Jihad Mahammad-- I read your post today , and found it very interesting. There are some thing"s you may want to change. When giving something from Our Bible . You may wish to show , From which Book you are taking a passage from. Like Mark, Luck, or John.Then the passage number with verse. Don't worry to much about it though. I am the last one here to say I am perfect.All ready you have shown thing"s of your faith , I had not Known. Please go ahead an post have fun enjoy . airclean33
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Jihad Mahammad
welcome to the good'ol wondercafe
welcome to the good'ol wondercafe
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Waterfall -- I am not in agreement with this as GODS word said"s. In JOHN 3:16-18
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Well I happen to believe that God's name might be love or looks like it.Hi Waterfall -- I am not in agreement with this as GODS word said"s. In JOHN 3:16-18
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
airclean - it's standard practice to identify the version quoted from as well
Well, partially it's for copyright © resonance Luce. Not Englishman translation pacify requirement to be met.
I feel copyright © requirement Gould be kept Luce. Your fuel economy may vary.
Neo
Well-Known Member
If I may answer for @Jihad Mohammad Hyjazie, we "align" ourselves by keeping the "containers' turned in the right direction to increase our capacity to gain more of God's Grace".
The "containers" are the spirit, mind and body through which we express ourselves.
Neo
Well-Known Member
Yes, like rain it falls on the good and the bad. Can God influence your turning over of your containers? Perhaps. Can God force you into turning over your containers? Never.