Grace and the Law

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airclean33 said:
Waterfall you post---
.but shouldn't we have a plan and laws in place that ensure we take care of one another freely.

Airclean ---Of course GOD seen this long ago.

Lev 19:18 (You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: )I am the LORD.

Now you should know who is your neighbor.
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What about loving your enemy?
 
revjohn said:
Jesus' crucifixion is the end of the law in that it fulfills the law rather than abolishes it.

Jesus' crucifixion does not end the people's need for laws because people's behaviours didn't transform immediately because of the crucifixion.

Humanity is still human and while those of us who are new creations in Christ can be sure that there is now no condemnation we still fall short in being gracious.

Like the unmerciful servant who is forgiven his debt we have a tendency to go out and grab the throats of those who owe us much less than what we just had forgiven and demand satisfaction.

We may be saved by Grace, we still are wed to works.
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Jesus fulfilled the law but didn't abolish it. And according to Christians it also gave us a condensed version of the law.....love God and love one another. It seems to me that when Christians say we no longer have to follow the law, meaning the Mosaic law numbering 613 , that we don't realize that Jesus actually increased the law. We see it as two commandments but doesn't it really require so much more to fulfil them than the original 613 laws? It seems there is far more work involved than ever before.
 
airclean33 said:
Question Rev--If The world were not under the Laws . How did it sin? John 3:16
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
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You need to read the whole thread, airclean. I never said that the world was not under law.

There are two laws spoken of in the Bible.

One is the Law of Moses. It was the written code given to Israel as a part of their covenant with God.

The other is what Paul refers to in Romans 2 as the law "written on their hearts." This is the law the Gentiles have. It is conscience - a knowledge of right and wrong. This is the law we continue to exist under since Gentile Christians were not brought into the covenant with Israel - which is made clear by the fact that circumcision was deemed unnecessary for Gentiles to be Christians. The law for Gentiles is a matter of conscience. Paul says that we do "by nature things required by the law." What does Jesus say is "required" by the law. Pretty simple: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Please note the words "All the Law ..." Those who do not act in love are not acting consistently with the law written on our hearts, or even with the Law of Moses, no matter how many verses from Leviticus they cite to justify their positions. Those who act with hate are not acting consistently with the law written on our hearts or even with the Law of Moses, no matter how many verses from Leviticus they cite to justify their positions. Our conscience tells us how to act in love. There may be disagreement over details, but the key is to always act lovingly toward others. This is what God's Law/law is about.

By the way, there is also nothing to suggest in Romans 2 that the "Gentiles" Paul was referring to were necessarily Christians; those who had received the Holy Spirit. He simply writes:

"... when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them." (Romans 2:14-15)
 
revsdd said:
You need to read the whole thread, airclean. I never said that the world was not under law.

There are two laws spoken of in the Bible.

One is the Law of Moses. It was the written code given to Israel as a part of their covenant with God.

The other is what Paul refers to in Romans 2 as the law "written on their hearts." This is the law the Gentiles have. It is conscience - a knowledge of right and wrong. This is the law we continue to exist under since Gentile Christians were not brought into the covenant with Israel - which is made clear by the fact that circumcision was deemed unnecessary for Gentiles to be Christians. The law for Gentiles is a matter of conscience. Paul says that we do "by nature things required by the law." What does Jesus say is "required" by the law. Pretty simple: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Please note the words "All the Law ..." Those who do not act in love are not acting consistently with the law written on our hearts, or even with the Law of Moses, no matter how many verses from Leviticus they cite to justify their positions. Those who act with hate are not acting consistently with the law written on our hearts or even with the Law of Moses, no matter how many verses from Leviticus they cite to justify their positions. Our conscience tells us how to act in love. There may be disagreement over details, but the key is to always act lovingly toward others. This is what God's Law/law is about.

By the way, there is also nothing to suggest in Romans 2 that the "Gentiles" Paul was referring to were necessarily Christians; those who had received the Holy Spirit. He simply writes:

"... when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them." (Romans 2:14-15)
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I think describing the two commandments as "simple" is an understatement.
 
revsdd said:
Simple in the sense of not voluminous.
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I figured that, but still I've even found myself believing sometimes that just rhyming off the two commandments makes me a follower. Then James has the nerve to set me straight: James 1:22
 
revsdd, I tend to think there are three sets of laws - the two aforementioned plus the Noahide laws. Covers the rest of the world rather nicely.
 
The Noahide Laws are interesting (#4 could heat up some debate) but they're part of the Talmud rather than the Old Testament, and the Talmud is not considered authoritative by Christians. In Scripture I see only the Law of Moses and Paul's "law written on [Gentile] hearts."
 
BetteTheRed said:
Typical cultural thievery. Abscond with the text, but don't take along the commentary. *sigh*
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Cultural thievery? Not sure what I'm being accused of there. I'm simply saying that they're part of the Talmud, which is not Christian. So perhaps you could clarify your comment.
 
revsdd said:
The Noahide Laws are interesting (#4 could heat up some debate) but they're part of the Talmud rather than the Old Testament, and the Talmud is not considered authoritative by Christians. In Scripture I see only the Law of Moses and Paul's "law written on [Gentile] hearts."
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Number 4....yikes! Does open a whole can of worms. But I suppose when you're trying to repopulate the earth it might have been counter productive to be gay?
 
revsdd said:
Cultural thievery? Not sure what I'm being accused of there. I'm simply saying that they're part of the Talmud, which is not Christian. So perhaps you could clarify your comment.
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What would be a counterpart to the Talmud for Christians?
 
revsdd said:
Really, there is no counterpart to the Talmud for Christians.
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Okay, just wondering. Wasn't sure if there was even a book in the NT that we focused on more in order to live within some sort of Biblical economic system.....whatever that would look like anyway.
 
The Talmud is basically a collection of writings of ancient rabbis as they apply the Law to - well - life. It's a sort of commentary on the Law, but much more authoritative than we would think of commentaries being. The closest thing Christians might have would probably be any collection of writings from the so-called "Church Fathers." But there's no general acceptance of who would be included in the list of great church fathers, and so there's no organized collection of "official" writings from "official" church fathers. The collections we do have are interesting and to a degree influential but not in any real sense authoritative, certainly not in the sense of the Talmud.
 
BetteTheRed said:
And who is your neighbour? Only the "sons of your own people"?
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Hi BetteTheRed --Not even thinking of who lived around Israel in those day"s. Look at a map of Israel in the middle east today . Who do you think there good Neighbor is? Israel as a nation always was a people surrounded by there enemy"s.Each I would think then would and should take care of the one who lived next door. Even Canada has those in the world ,that are not our friends.
 
Oh, I don't think you agree with Jesus, then. He thought that your sworn enemy was your neighbour.

(And revsdd, I think of Torah without Talmud more like the Gospels without Paul's letters...)

Also, #4 in the list I'm using refers to sexual immorality.
 
Of course, Christians consider Paul's letters to be Scripture, but Jews do not consider the Talmud to be Scripture.
 
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