The Christian Downfall ---The Error Of Balaam
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airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Neo-- First I would like to thank you for your post above. I think it opened up more about what this thread seems to have gotten into. How one reads and interprets GODS word The Bible.I also have enjoyed those who posted after. As each seem to have a different Idea of what they where seeing or what they saw. Now who knows for sure what the truth is? I myself, I believe only the one who wrote it. In the case of GODS Word . That would apply to GOD.---airclean33
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
the only thing i can think of who believes the "dead Letter theory " is Catholicisms use of 2 Corinthians 3:6,,,
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Catholics believe ( correct me if im wrong ) that the word is imperfect, and a dead letter based on Cor 2 , 3:6 , until it is explained by the Supreme Pontiff, and allowed by him to be read by the laity, and only the catholic church can give the word life .
of course i don't believe that , the Letter Kills & dead letters are 2 very different statements , St Paul explains what Letter letters he is referring to which is the OT Law, further more dead things cannot kill because well frankly there dead, so the Law is Live and active
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Catholics believe ( correct me if im wrong ) that the word is imperfect, and a dead letter based on Cor 2 , 3:6 , until it is explained by the Supreme Pontiff, and allowed by him to be read by the laity, and only the catholic church can give the word life .
of course i don't believe that , the Letter Kills & dead letters are 2 very different statements , St Paul explains what Letter letters he is referring to which is the OT Law, further more dead things cannot kill because well frankly there dead, so the Law is Live and active
I'm not so sure Pope Francis believes that. Maybe some in his court still do.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Words are never dead so long as they inspire some understanding in our hearts. Even taken literally, life is there so long as a human mind is engaging with the text. Because the truth is that letters are dead ink on a dead page until taken in by a human mind.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
When we reduce living spirit to words on a page we run a risk. We also express a hope. The risk being that we may mistake the representation for what is represented. The hope being that the representation may open access to what is represented.
Free creative agency pre-exists any text and transcends any text.
George
Free creative agency pre-exists any text and transcends any text.
George
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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can you explain more what you mean by free creative agency?
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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righto -- words are social games, little bits of art -- they are created tools at some time (and no, not always intentionally), sounds and forms to express a certain aspect of existence which, over time, slowly may gather other usages...some usages become more popular than others, some usages really aren't used any more or are forgotten...and when something is new, it is more present, more vibrant...as something becomes common, we lose sight of it and it becomes 'normal', even boring...
i like ralph waldo emerson's notion that language is fossil poetry...every letter, every word is brilliant with meaning, history, culture, etc
so yes, the Bibble is dead without human beings
interesting to read from blackbelt that the notion of dead letters is a particular Catholic social game? hmm...
be as wise as a serpent
only when you are as a child will you get to Heaven
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Emerson caught my imagination for some number of years. Read all I could find. The author seemed deeply intoxicated by the delight of language. I remember an essay narrating the experience of an all seeing eye. The conscious subject immersed in the unified field of experience.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Foucault speaks on the opportunity and challenge of speaking in a truthful manner. He notes that truth pronounced must be heard to be considered true. Truth is not mono-logic. It is revealed only in the place of dialogic agreement.
We are divided by the ten billion distractions and distortions. We are united in the one life present as animating energy for each and for all.
George
in "The Courage of Truth" Michel Foucault said:
We are divided by the ten billion distractions and distortions. We are united in the one life present as animating energy for each and for all.
George
Neo
Well-Known Member
I can't believe you guys are so offended by this. The "dead letter of the law is a "law, ordinance, etc., that has lost its force but has not been formally repealed or abolished."what Rev John & Rev Steven said
The bible is full of "dead letters". Imagine if everyone lived, to the letter, according to the Book of Deuteronomy? What a crazy world that would be. Most of the men would be jail according to today's standards.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
What we're saying is that all of Scripture has the potential to transform people by causing them to think, reflect, etc. Words on a page (any page of any book) are never "dead" because they engage those who read them, although the hearts and minds of those who read may well be dead. But the Bible, the Koran, Dickens, Shakespeare, etc. (even Danielle Steele I suppose) can all engage their readers, and are therefore far more than "dead letters." In any event, no "offense" was taken on my part, but you're hanging around United Church folk too much, because too often the UCC way is to equate disagreement with "offense."
Having said that, I think what we were really pointing out was that none of the three of us who commented (blackbelt himself, as well as revjohn and I) saw anything antagonistic in blackbelt's comment. I, however, did detect a sense of antagonism in your response - and also in some of your comments in a thread on baptism, where frankly you seemed quite antagonistic toward the church, trying desperately (so it seemed) to trap the church as having taken a position that the church hasn't taken or has long since rejected. That also doesn't offend me. I just wonder what's behind that "aura" of antagonism I'm sensing from you.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
--Hi Blackbelt 1961---I can agree with most of this post . Just wondering though why you didn't go a bit higher.
2Co 3:4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God.
This to me shows a little better to me . Who is in charge of understanding what comes from the mouth of GOD. airclean33
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revjohn
Well-Known Member
I for one don't believe you intended it as a friendly or respectful comment.
Now that our respective disbeliefs are out in the open I'll move on to my response.
First, as with revsdd it is not a matter of offence it is a matter of disagreement. Steven has, I think, outlined very well how dead letters function.
Second, most of what the Bible records as offence is offence against God and leads to sanctions in the worship life of the faith community. Relatively few are the rules, commandments or ordinances which lead to criminal sanction. And even of those sanctions against God the punishments doled out tend towards characterization as, "take a bath and/or sleep it off."
True there are some rather serious punishments for what were then considered serious breaches in the social fabric. They get more notice simply because of the serious nature of the crime and the punishment. The run of the mill stuff is, well, pretty run of the mill actually.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
why would I or Rev John or Steven be offended, were just in disagreement with you
this is the point, no where in scripture does it say the law is dead, what it says is the law kills, in order for the law to kill, the law must be alive to do so, dead things cant kill because well , there dead , dead things cannot perform any actions
your statement here actually proves our point Neo, yes imagine if everyone did live to the letter, if the letters were dead there would be no crazy world according to Deuteronomy , the very reason why the world would be crazy as you say is because the word is active effecting the minds , soul and spirit of the reader.
and that is exactly why the law is not dead but kills because when we read the 10 commandments we begin see that we are all guilty of some of them and it kills our spirit and effects our minds and soul. Because the readers of the Law were so affected they began to look to God To save them
Delightful Life
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What I was just trying to point out when you wrote this
Neo said:
Is that it looked like to me you were being antagonistic there
Which I couldn't grok, because blackbelt was being all understanding and really positive...
Glad we all could come together to try to help with the communication difficulties