The Christian Downfall ---The Error Of Balaam

[revjohn]

Hi Rev John -- Now I see why your church is in trouble

Respectfully you are only seeing what you want to see and most of that exists only in your imagination.

If someone ask a Question of a united Minister ,you just say you answer your own questions, as I don't no them.

How long have we been corresponding through the internet? Almost seven years now I think, Your allegation proves that either you never pay attention to what others post so that you can get some sense of who they are or, you are angry and being immature about it.

I have no problem admitting what I don't know or that I do not know.

I'm also very good about making it clear what I don't know.

At present I, like revsdd, am asking a question based on the statement made by unsafe that scripture teaches Cain had no faith and that Cain's sacrifice was rejected because it was not a blood sacrifice.

I also asked where in scripture we find God instructing Cain and Abel about the difference in sacrifices (because I don't read it anywhere.

As the conversation has progressed unsafe has introduced the notion that the offerings brought by Cain and Abel were sin offerings which is not revealed in any scripture I have read.

None of these questions have been answered, the only thing unsafe which has produced to support her position are some cut and paste notes from the internet which do not use scripture they make assumptions.

 

[revjohn]

Rev John has now twisted it around to mean something else. This don't really surprise me much with John. You are right a Christain though should stand there ground. This is very inporten in these days .

I have twisted Matthew 7: 1 now have I?

I haven't even addressed it. Nice false witness on your part.

And now I twist scripture eh? That is what I am known for is it?

Look at what I quote back to you.

revsdd--you really should read more of God's word.

I'm quoting you and your words not Matthew 7: 1.

Interestingly you apply that to revsdd and I but you have no problem passing judgement on either of us.

No hypocrisy there at all.

 

[airclean33]

Hi inannawhimsy---Here are unsafes Answers--
1---Proverbs 3:5Amplified Bible (AMP)

5 Lean on, trust in,andbe confident in the Lord with all your heartandmind and do not rely on your own insight or understanding.

2--Proverbs 4:7Amplified Bible (AMP)

7 The beginning of Wisdom is: get Wisdom (skillful and godly Wisdom)! [For skillfulandgodly Wisdom is the principal thing.] And with all you have gotten, get understanding (discernment, comprehension, and interpretation)

Peace to all
Airclean---
The answer lays in knowing and understanding GODS Holy Spirit. For it was with the Spirit of GOD through the Holy Spirit that the word was writen and became the BIBLE. This is my belief . Along with a few 100.000. more or less today.I could be short by three-000 or so.God Bless you Innanna for your post... airclean33

 

[airclean33]

Hi Revsdd--Is this not your post---(Since you are so clearly a false teacher why would anyone pay attention to anything you post?) As I've said before . The passages I read in Genesis, dose not say for sure. So I asked you to to show me were you get your Idea? As far as I can tell each of you could make a case.You still have not showen me.By Chapter and verse you made your .So are you accusing with no proof?
Airclean-- This you also posted--
In all honesty airclean I suspect that I've read more of God's Word than you, but it's not a competition. I haven't made any claims about what Scripture does or does not say

This again seems untrue. For if you say unsafe is wrong Then you have made a claim about what Scripture is saying.

 

[revjohn]

Hi inannawhimsy---Here are unsafes Answers

Respectfully these are not answers to any of the questions being asked of unsafe in this thread.

Lean on, trust in,and be confident in the Lord with all your heart and mind and do not rely on your own insight or understanding.

Neither revsdd nor I are counselling otherwise. And yet, the insistence by unsafe that scripture does teach all that she is claiming it teaches with respect to Cain and Abel is resting more on her insight and understanding than it is actual scripture.

The beginning of Wisdom is: get Wisdom (skillful and godly Wisdom)! [For skillful and godly Wisdom is the principal thing.] And with all you have gotten, get understanding (discernment, comprehension, and interpretation)

Again, neither revsdd nor myself are arguing against this teaching. Like the first scripture it answers absolutely none of the questions repeatedly put to unsafe.

The answer lays in knowing and understanding GODS Holy Spirit. For it was with the Spirit of GOD through the Holy Spirit that the word was writen and became the BIBLE. This is my belief . Along with a few 100.000. more or less today.I could be short by three-000 or so.God Bless you Innanna for your post... airclean33

Which again is neither her nor there.

unsafe made claims and those claims were that scripture supported the notion that Cain had no faith, that Cain's offering was rejected because it was not a blood sacrifice, that Cain and Abel had been instructed on what was a proper sacrifice and that the sacrifices they were bringing were sin offerings.

We have asked what scriptures are being used that make those understandings clear and to date no scriptures have been shared which make those understandings clear.

We have been challenged to prove scripture wrong, which neither revsdd nor myself have any desire to do.

We do desire to challenge whether unsafe is correct in her assertion.

For the record you also chime in on one or two of the allegations that unsafe has made.

3) that previous instruction about sacrifice had been given to Cain and Abel by God?

AIRCLEAN--Once more I can't find were it saids one way or another. You" I'm sure would not mind showing me by Chapter and vers where it said one way or another. In that you believe Unsafe wrong.

You can't find the scripture that unsafe claims exists. Aren't you the least bit interested in learning what that scripture is? You can't find it, I can't find it, revsdd can't find it but unsafe says it is there (though she refuses to tell anyone where) so you accept that it must be there rather than not existing at all.

It isn't up to us to prove unsafe is wrong. Unsafe claimed that scripture teaches X and we want to know which scripture teaches X it is a simple question answer to which is being evaded strenuously.

4) that the offerings made by Cain and Abel were sin offerings?

Airclean---Once more I can"t seem to find one way or another were it said what Kind of offering it should or should not be.

Again you cannot find a scripture to support unsafe's claim that such a scripture exists. Aren't you the least bit interested in learning what that scripture is? You being better read in scripture than revsdd and myself should be able to find it and you can't. If I could find it, by your own testimony I would be engaged in twisting it to say something other than what is claimed and yet I can't even get around to doing that because the scripture, as far as you, revsdd and myself know simply does not exist.

Unsafe says it, you believe her, that settles it I guess.

She who claims only to rely on God's word cannot find a scripture to support her claims.

You who claim only to rely on God's word cannot find the scripture to support her claims but you believe she is right anyway.

Whatever understanding you are leaning on at present doesn't appear to hold truth in high regard.

 

[airclean33]

Hi Rev John--This is your post--
How much does he have to read before he finds scripture that doesn't exist?


Airclean-- The passages I gave Rev Steven had not to do with . Gen reading. As you well had knowen . Yet you tryed to show it had. I was trying to tell the Rev he was on shaky ground.

 

[Seeler]

Hi airclean - you quote unsafe's answers. Maybe you should reread them yourself. These statements do not answer the questions. Many of us are tired of unsafe claiming something she says is from the Bible when actually it is her own understanding and interpretation of the Bible.
In this case she has been called on it. Either she needs to admit that this is how she interprets the Bible, or she needs to show in chapter and verse that what she claims is directly from the Bible.

 

[revjohn]

Hi Rev John--This is your post--How much does he have to read before he finds scripture that doesn't exist?

That is correct. That is my post.

Airclean-- The passages I gave Rev Steven had not to do with . Gen reading. As you well had knowen

And my question was back on track as you would well know if you bothered to read.

Steven keep asking unsafe, "What is the scripture?"

Unsafe keeps refusing to answer.

You suggested he should read more scripture which I'm sure was not you at all being insulting in any way.

And I asked "How much does he have to read before he finds a scripture that doesn't exist" which as you should have known was a reference to the scripture unsafe claims exists but refuses to share.

Anytime you want to think you know exactly what I am thinking you should probably think again. You know what you know. You know what I feel. You are in no way an authority on what I know or how I feel.

I'm able to keep on topic, I have demonstrated that time and time again.

I was trying to tell the Rev he was on shaky ground.

How is he on shaky ground asking unsafe to share the scriptures which support her claims?

How is he on shaky ground by her refusing to share the scriptures which she claims exist?

How is he on shaky ground by claiming that her teaching is false if she cannot or will not support her own claims?

 

[airclean33]

Hi John this is your opinion--
airclean33 said:
Hi inannawhimsy---Here are unsafes Answers
Click to expand...
Respectfully these are not answers to any of the questions being asked of unsafe in this thread.

AIRCLEAN--This is not mine . I believe because there is not anything in Genesis to understand it it. You would need the mind of GOD to understand it.That is His Holy Spirit.

:

 

[airclean33]

Rev John --Your post--
Proverbs 4: 7 said:
The beginning of Wisdom is: get Wisdom (skillful and godly Wisdom)! [For skillful and godly Wisdom is the principal thing.] And with all you have gotten, get understanding (discernment, comprehension, and interpretation)
Click to expand...


Again, neither revsdd nor myself are arguing against this teaching. Like the first scripture it answers absolutely none of the questions repeatedly put to unsafe.


Airclean-- this is not true John-- You posted Cains offering was not his best. Yet there is nothing in GODS word to say that. Again I agree it's what you feel is right , and may well be . But thats an oppinion not chapter and verse.

 

[airclean33]

Hi Seeler I respect you as a Christain of GOD . I thank you for your opinion. airclean33

 

[revsdd]

Hi Revsdd--Is this not your post---(Since you are so clearly a false teacher why would anyone pay attention to anything you post?) As I've said before . The passages I read in Genesis, dose not say for sure. So I asked you to to show me were you get your Idea? As far as I can tell each of you could make a case.You still have not showen me.By Chapter and verse you made your .So are you accusing with no proof?
Airclean-- This you also posted--
In all honesty airclean I suspect that I've read more of God's Word than you, but it's not a competition. I haven't made any claims about what Scripture does or does not say

This again seems untrue. For if you say unsafe is wrong Then you have made a claim about what Scripture is saying.

Have you actually been reading this thread, airclean? It doesn't appear so. You seem to be riding to unsafe's defense without any idea about the discussion we're having.

I've made no claims. I haven't said that unsafe is wrong in her position that any of the things she claims "might" have happened. In fact I said that she has a very arguable point about the "blood sacrifice" idea.

My problem is that she claims scriptural support for her positions, but I don't know where they are and I've never heard of them. So I've asked her to either state that her position is a personal position, a personal interpretation that goes beyond the textual evidence of scripture, or to educate me as to where these scriptures are found, since I've never come across them. She won't admit that she's interpreting; going beyond the textual evidence of scripture. So, since she claims scriptural support for her positions, I'm asking her to show me:

Where does Scripture say that Cain's sacrifice was not accepted because it was not a blood sacrifice?
Where does Scripture say that Cain was without faith?
Where does Scripture say that God gave Cain and Abel instructions about sacrifices before this incident?
Where does Scripture say that the sacrifices made by Cain and Abel were sin offerings?

I'm not accusing unsafe of being a false teacher because she's taking those positions. The first at least I think can be argued quite well. She's a false teacher because she's claiming that these are clear teachings of scripture, but she's apparently unable to provide the scriptures that clearly teach them. I believe that there are no scriptures that teach such things - but I'm open to being proved wrong, because unlike unsafe apparently I make no claim that I am incapable of error. So, where are these scriptures? Chapter and verse. I don't know where they are? I'm asking her to show me. I'm not saying she's wrong. I'm asking her to show me. Repeatedly asking her to show me. I want to learn about these Scriptures that I've never seen or heard of before.

Can you help me by giving me the scriptures (chapter and verse) that answer the four straightforward questions I've asked above? Because all unsafe can do is bob and weave around the questions, posting a lot of stuff from commentaries and websites and sermons and videos, but never posting these scriptures that she's apparently found. So you'd not only be helping me by posting them, you'd be helping unsafe, because unsafe clearly can't put her finger on them.

 

[airclean33]

John-- Heres another part of your post--
airclean33 said:
The answer lays in knowing and understanding GODS Holy Spirit. For it was with the Spirit of GOD through the Holy Spirit that the word was writen and became the BIBLE. This is my belief . Along with a few 100.000. more or less today.I could be short by three-000 or so.God Bless you Innanna for your post... airclean33
Click to expand...
Which again is neither her nor there.




Hi Rev John ---Once more you post it don't matter how many people think different than you. Well John I hate to tell you but we do. We talk to GOD an He talks back .Befor I start telling another born again there wrong . I really have to understand whats happening . I really need to know GODS teaching in what we are talking about. I also believe GOD teaches some things to others He may not teach me. Why ? It may not help me in my work.I have many Brothers and Sisters that have just Blowen my mind with there teaching from GOD. But it don't surprise me for long . As I understand our GOD is very diverse HIS ways are not our ways. But I believe all things are posible to HIM.

 

[airclean33]

Hi Revsdd---You know unsfae is right . these talks do just go around in a circle.As I'v said GODS word don't say oneway or the other. So I can't help you . Take it as you see it. airclean33

 

[revjohn]

You posted Cains offering was not his best. Yet there is nothing in GODS word to say that.

On that we will disagree and I will again point to Genesis 4: 3-4

Cain brought "some"

Abel brought "fat portions from the firstborn of his flock"

In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering and Abel also brought an offering--fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favour on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favour.

I see, in scripture which I believe is God's word, a very clear distinction between Cain's some and the language of firstfuits and fat. The latter representing the best while some means just that some. It never means the best.

And so I say that the reason why Cain's offering was rejected is because it really shows little regard for God. It is a gift given grudgingly

You may not agree with that argument. You cannot honestly say I have not arrived at this conclusion from ignoring scripture.

Again I agree it's what you feel is right , and may well be . But thats an oppinion not chapter and verse.

No. It is chapter and verse, you were able to read it to disagree with it based on what you read.

Which is much more than unsafe has shared

I believe you also came to the conclusion that Cain's offering was rejected because the ground was cursed. Although nowhere in scripture does it ever say that Cain's offering was rejected because the ground was cursed. You tossed scripture along supporting that idea nobody said that there was nothing in God's word supporting that position because we can read you posting scripture and we recognize it.

We have said that we do not believe that text works because elsewhere God does ask for offerings and sacrifices from the ground so, if it is true that nothing from the ground is acceptable because the ground is cursed God asked for unacceptable sacrifices. Does that sound like something God would do? Did God not know that the sacrifices he asked for would not be acceptable or was he setting the Israelites up so that any who brought such a sacrifice could be struck down?

He set the altar of burnt offering near the entrance to the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, and offered on it burnt offerings and grain offerings, as the Lord commanded him.

Why would God command that if it is true that the produce of the earth is cursed and unfit for God?

I have also pointed to other texts which address the heart of the believer and that the "proper" sacrifice offered by someone whose heart is false is not accepted by God.

Cain, I believe, was simply going through the motions. He brought an offering to God because he believed in God, he has a conversation with God about the rejected offering. Who did he think he was talking to if he had no faith? He didn't bring his best because, well he worked the cursed earth for it why should he just give it away?

I don't think he had a deep and abiding love for God. That is not the same as not having faith.

 

[revjohn]

Once more you post it don't matter how many people think different than you.

That what I said was it? That's what I meant was it? You were inside my head to know where you? Or perhaps this is what some spirit laid upon your heart that I was thinking.

I am well aware that people think differently than I do. I am okay with the fact that people think differently than I do. I do not, as a rule, indicate that people who think differently than I do don't believe in God or God's word. That is unsafe's game. I mirrored those statements back at her.

If you are interested in knowing what I think ask and I will tell you.

If you want to put words and ideas in my mouth so that you can justify your self-righteousness I probably won't play along.

What I meant was that the Proverbs passages that unsafe quotes do not answer the questions that revsdd has been asking.

Again it is about staying on topic.

Befor I start telling another born again there wrong . I really have to understand whats happening

I would hope you try to have a clue before you start telling anyone they are wrong.

Based on the motives and meanings you have put into my mouth it is not evident that you have a clue or much understanding about what I have been saying.

I really need to know GODS teaching in what we are talking about.

I expect that revsdd and I share that desire to know God's teaching which is why we keep asking for the scripture references unsafe insists are so clear.

You yourself admit that you haven't found any scriptures which are so clear.

So, either unsafe is wrong and that is why none of us can find it or the three of us are equally ignorant and unsafe refuses to enlighten us.

I also believe GOD teaches some things to others He may not teach me.

Which neither revsdd nor myself would argue with. Unsafe made a claim and we are asking for her to produce the scriptures she insists make it clear.

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Do you not test revsdd and myself? Are you and unsafe exempt from being tested? Does the passage really mean, "do not believe every spirit but unsafe is not to be tested at all?"

Again unsafe made a very definite claim. Scripture clearly teaches this and that. Revsdd and myself are saying we don't believe that scripture very clearly teaches that and we have asked for unsafe to tell us which scriptures clearly teach this and that. Unsafe has not answered with anything approaching clear.

It may well be very clear to her regretably she is unable to explain it clearly to others.

 

[revsdd]

Hi Revsdd---You know unsfae is right . these talks do just go around in a circle.As I'v said GODS word don't say oneway or the other. So I can't help you . Take it as you see it. airclean33

It's going round in a circle only because she won't either (a) cite the scriptures she has claimed support her position, or (b) admit that she's making a personal interpretation which goes beyond scripture. If she does either of those things the discussion ends - at least my part in it. But by refusing to do either she is deceitfully implying that her position has scriptural support. She is a false teacher on this issue. You do yourself no credit (nor do you give any honour to Christ, whom you claim to follow) by supporting her on this. Why don't you ask her to stop the circle by posting the scriptures that support her claim.

And - "born again" is not a noun! First, it's a bad translation. The Greek really means "born from above." Second, Jesus doesn't use it as a noun. He uses it as basically an adjective: "you must be born from above." He doesn't say "you must be a born from above."

 

[airclean33]

Hi Rev John-- I findly got on the internet and this is what I find you"v posted


Genesis 4: 3-5 said:
In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering and( Abel )also brought an offering--fat portions from (some) of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favour on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favour.
Click to expand...
I see, in scripture which I believe is God's word, a very clear distinction between Cain's some and the language of firstfuits and fat. The latter representing the best while some means just that ???


Airclean---Please note were I inboldend and underline. In the passage and verse this is talking of Abels offering. So you see John I have know Idea what your talking about.

 

[airclean33]

Hi Revstdd---You have posted---
And - "born again" is not a noun! First, it's a bad translation. The Greek really means "born from above." Second, Jesus doesn't use it as a noun. He uses it as basically an adjective: "you must be born from above." He doesn't say "you must be a born from above."


Airclean-- I agree rev only GOD can offer you to be Born Again. The new life starts with HIM coming in an helping you to find the way. The way is not a denomintian called by any name. It is a family , we have become GODS family and the Way is true and right . For it is GODS Way.Are we all at the same point of the path. By no means , some are ahead others behind.My belef is easy I seek the hand of the one ahead. And offer mine to the one behind. Am I my brothers keeper , yes as they are mine. God Bless Revs---airclean33

 

[airclean33]

Hi Rev John --Your post---
airclean33 said:
I really need to know GODS teaching in what we are talking about.
Click to expand...
I expect that revsdd and I share that desire to know God's teaching which is why we keep asking for the scripture references unsafe insists are so clear.

You yourself admit that you haven't found any scriptures which are so clear.

So, either unsafe is wrong and that is why none of us can find it or the three of us are equally ignorant and unsafe refuses to enlighten us.

AIRCLEAN---You keep asking unsafe to explain ,what I take to be that what Christ has told her.
Another man aked this of Christ Himself oneday. As I'm sure you know. His name Pilate.

Jhn 18:35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?"

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world."

Jhn 18:37 Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice."

Jhn 18:38 Pilate said to him, "What is truth?" After he had said this, he went out to the Jews again, and told them, "I find no crime in him.

Indeed WHAT IS TRUTH? You Rev know the answer of this?
Are you ready for it? I believe the answer to both these Questions on Wondercafe was no. I am born again , but still do not know all the answers as I sateted here. I believe our LORD knows them if you wish to ask Him. One more Question though , are you ready for the answers? ----airclean33---