Works without faith is dead

[blackbelt1961]

So what are "works"? Are they simply "good things" as the version of Bible you just quoted says they are? Or are they they something more profound and meaningful? Do our works in life prepare us for salvation? Or are we saved just because we believe?

that depends on who you ask, according to Catholicism, works are a part of ones working out of his/her salvation, but according to Protestants, salvation is only found in Jesus no works required for salvation, but because of being saved we do works

My personal view is the Protestant one.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Ok, but what about those that God doesn't give these gifts to? What happens to them? Scattered seed to the wind, destined to die? You said above that God doesn't desire any to perish. So how can God give these gifts to some but not others?

my understanding Neo is that gifts and Eternal life are separate, a gift is sometime we currently don't have and then gifted to us , Life we currently already have , it was gifted at birth, the gift in Life now to be given is the extension of it into eternity .

God in the birth process has already Gifted all human beings , God has also Gifted what is necessary for all human life, His Son Jesus Christ.

So the question is not "what about those that God doesn't give these gifts to" because clearly from scripture God has gifted all

The question should be , which is what i believe your asking "what about those who do not accept this free gift of eternal life "


Bible says we are commended already , all of us are , Jesus saves us from Condemnation , thous who do not accept this free gift will be judged by that who saves, Jesus , all power and authority is His to do so .

what will be the out come of that Judgement, No one knows , except for Christ/God.

God is Love, the only thing if you think about it Neo that can truly break ones heart is Love and the violation of it , we see this in our relationships. God is the same, we serve a relational God , God Loves us , God wants us to be in relationship with Him eternally, but there are thous who will chose not to be with Yahweh even though they know who He is.


so taking into account the Complete story of God, Life and Love takes presence, Jesus proved this on the Cross, if they love God but do not know there son, I believe based on the Nature of God they will be Judged according to what they do know, and there heart. so yes Non christians can and will be saved.

But who is saved is not my Judgement to make , that belongs to Christ

 

[airclean33]

I am not a predestination est .I believe GOD did something with Mankind He had never done before . He gave us the right to chose not to obey Him. Of course if you chose that right .You will find yourself in a place you never again will have to obey Him.If you read Gods word about Adam. You will see GOD gave man the right to chose.The thing gets me is I know the GOD we have knew what Adam and Eve would chose.But because of the Great Love our GOD has for us . He had already sett a plan in place to save us from our self"s.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

It is by The Love of God or Grace we are saved so that no man may boast. By the way Jae said we are born a sinner . To say the would mean Jesus was a sinner. And yet He was found to have no sin. Dose GOD chose to use some for His work yes. Dose that make that person better than any others no. Those who are saved are all GODS Children.Those who are chosen to work with GOD . Must service those under them. Jesus The Christ Jesus being the Highest of all humankind . Has been our servant through life.With out Him we would all be dead. All Glory Is GODS.

 

[blackbelt1961]

I would have to say that predestination is a mystery to me - perhaps part of the great mystery that is God. I don't understand it.
It seems to me to deny free will. If we are predestined to act in certain ways or be or do certain things, I don't see how we could choose not to do so.

free will is not denied, what it states is that in the fall of man, free will becomes corrupted .

predestination are free will creature who will to, regardless of what God does to change there hearts as the saying goes,

its better to rule in hell that to serve in Heaven

 

[Jaebius]

...By the way Jae said we are born a sinner . To say the would mean Jesus was a sinner. And yet He was found to have no sin.

Jesus is an exception, because He, being the Son of God, did not carry the curse of original sin.

Those who are chosen to work with GOD . Must service those under them. Jesus The Christ Jesus being the Highest of all humankind . Has been our servant through life.With out Him we would all be dead. All Glory Is GODS.

Those who have been saved are still broken people airclean. There is no one "under them" as you suggest. For too long Christians have made the mistake of thinking themselves superior to others.

 

[Jaebius]

Bible says we are commended already , all of us are , Jesus saves us from Condemnation , thous who do not accept this free gift will be judged by that who saves, Jesus , all power and authority is His to do so .

If we are all condemned already blackbelt, from whence comes the power for us to choose to accept the free gift?

 

[blackbelt1961]

If we are all condemned already blackbelt, from whence comes the power for us to choose to accept the free gift?

John 3:18 states if we do not believe in Christ we are condemned already , so condemnation and free will are not one and the same, even though free will is corrupted and continue to be as long as we live on earth, my understanding is we can have a desire to turn to Christ , corruption and all

 

[airclean33]

Jesus is an exception, because He, being the Son of God, did not carry the curse of original sin..

So Jae do you also feel His mother Marry was also at this time a Child coming from GOD?


Jae posted--
Those who have been saved are still broken people airclean. There is no one "under them" as you suggest. For too long Christians have made the mistake of thinking themselves superior to others.[/QUOTE]

--
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.

No one said these are better than anyone . They have how ever been appointed jobs to do. That GOD has given them.

 

[Jaebius]

John 3:18 states if we do not believe in Christ we are condemned already , so condemnation and free will are not one and the same, even though free will is corrupted and continue to be as long as we live on earth, my understanding is we can have a desire to turn to Christ , corruption and all

How do you reconcile that with Romans 6:23 (the wages of sin is death (death - not mere corruption)) and John 3:18 which states that Jesus chose His followers - they did not choose Him.

 

[Jaebius]

So Jae do you also feel His mother Marry was also at this time a Child coming from GOD?

I feel that Mary was born spiritually dead, and later in life was given the gift of justification by God.

No one said these are better than anyone . They have how ever been appointed jobs to do. That GOD has given them.

Agreed that they are not better than anyone. They remain as broken people even though they are also now saints, and they have God-given works of service to do.

 

[blackbelt1961]

How do you reconcile that with Romans 6:23 (the wages of sin is death (death - not mere corruption)) and John 3:18 which states that Jesus chose His followers - they did not choose Him.

John 3:18 , says we are already condemned meaning its not a future event , it is what we currently are, the Law pre Jesus reflects our current condition .

Romans 6:23 , confirms John 3;18, if we continue in Condemnation , ultimately we will face eternal death, but if we accept Gods free Gift of salvation, Jesus, condemnation is no more but we will ultimately have Eternal life.

 

[Jaebius]

John 3:18 , says we are already condemned meaning its not a future event , it is what we currently are, the Law pre Jesus reflects our current condition .

Romans 6:23 , confirms John 3;18, if we continue in Condemnation , ultimately we will face eternal death, but if we accept Gods free Gift of salvation, Jesus, condemnation is no more but we will ultimately have Eternal life.

Sorry - my bad. Rather than John 3:18, I meant to ask you about John 15:16 (emphasis mine)...

"You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you. I have set you apart for the work of bringing in fruit. Your fruit should last. And whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give it to you" - John 15:16 (NLV).

What I believe blackbelt is that we were dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1), unable to choose Jesus, so Jesus acted through the power of the Spirit of God to save us.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Sorry - my bad. Rather than John 3:18, I meant to ask you about John 15:16 (emphasis mine)...

"You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you. I have set you apart for the work of bringing in fruit. Your fruit should last. And whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give it to you" - John 15:16 (NLV).

I believe John 15:16 is speaking of just that, Jesus chose thous who will bring others to the Kingdom , I do believe it is God who begins the process of salvation .

What I believe blackbelt is that we were dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1), unable to choose Jesus, so Jesus acted through the power of the Spirit of God to save us.

yes and no,

I believe yes we were dead in our sins, but we all have a certain level of ability to chose

This is Calvinism, witch i do see merit in, but I also see merit in desire to choose

Do we choose God or God choose us???


personal i believe God originally makes the choice but then i have a part to play in acceptance. I dont believe my acceptance makes me a player in salvation because without God First there would be nothing to accept


so to my defense I plead the 5th when Paul stated ,,,,, I see Dimly

 

[Luce NDs]

Two different things ...

Indeterminate is closer to pre-determination or prescience ... being a bit of a visionary * ... alas humanity doesn't like visionaries who examine the past and project possible futures as a result of rational ... LOGOS? Thus the irrational world, if you haven't noticed!

• * sort of like where do all the visionaries go (dark shadows of the flowers?) mankind puts "m" all down because ... we don't wish to know (biblical tradition for the overly emotional)? Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing ... hoot ...

 

[unsafe]

Read all here ----https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/6708-predestination

DICTIONARY OF BIBLE THEMES – 6708 PREDESTINATION
Resources»Dictionary of Bible Themes»6000 Sin and salvation»6600 Aspects of salvation»6708 predestination
6708 predestination
6708 predestination
God’s foreordination of all events and circumstances for the good of his people and the glory of his name.
Predestination depends on God’s sovereignty
He is the Creator of all thingsJer 32:17-19See alsoGe 1:1;Job 38:1-4;Isa 44:24-28;Isa 45:12-13;Isa 48:12-14
He rules over nature and historyPr 16:4See alsoGe 18:10-14;Ps 67:4;Pr 16:9,33;Pr 21:1;Mt 8:23-27ppMk 4:35-41ppLk 8:22-25;Mt 10:29-30;Ac 17:26
His will is perfectGe 18:25See alsoEx 33:19;Dt 32:4;Job 8:3;Ps 119:137;Da 4:37
God’s predestined purposes cannot be thwarted
Human beings cannot stand against his willRo 9:19-21See alsoPs 2:1-4;Pr 19:21;Pr 21:30;Isa 14:24-27;Isa 46:10-12;Da 4:35
False gods are impotent before himPs 115:3-8See alsoIsa 44:8-20;Isa 45:20;Isa 48:14

 

[Luce NDs]

Is dead in sin a bit of extreme numbness to what we observe in life?

Time for an awakening ... by convention of dictionary ... apocalypse? Ogo ude God ... thank god for devilish satire to hide buried visions ... sort of like Alice in Wonderland with that Jonathan guise ... Swift?

Is it possible to know the infinite word (as God)? Not as it flexes red active lye, embarrassing when people can interpret your thoughts about terminations ... period that small spot ... dark?

 

[Luce NDs]

General, conventional, interpretations, please ... not religiously biased ... to much polity ... spiritual extremism! Goes against thoughtful extremes ...

 

[airclean33]

I am not sure your meaning here Jae . I am not broken any more Brother . Yes I live in flesh just now . But GOD helps me deal with that.If you have GODS spirit in flesh with you . How can you be broken? Praise be to GOD Jae . In the last 38 years I have been learning to be one with GOD.To Listen to what He says , to obey Him who has all Knowledge to the one" who will Teach us all things. I am a child of the living GOD", broken Jae No. living for the first time yes.

 

[Jaebius]

I believe John 15:16 is speaking of just that, Jesus chose thous who will bring others to the Kingdom , I do believe it is God who begins the process of salvation .




yes and no,

I believe yes we were dead in our sins, but we all have a certain level of ability to chose

This is Calvinism, witch i do see merit in, but I also see merit in desire to choose

Do we choose God or God choose us???


personal i believe God originally makes the choice but then i have a part to play in acceptance. I dont believe my acceptance makes me a player in salvation because without God First there would be nothing to accept


so to my defense I plead the 5th when Paul stated ,,,,, I see Dimly

Okay brother blackbelt. I know you have commonly-held Christian beliefs. I would like to clarify one thing - I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Okay brother blackbelt. I know you have commonly-held Christian beliefs. I would like to clarify one thing - I'm not a Calvinist.

im not a Calvinist either