Works without faith is dead

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Neo

Well-Known Member
James 2 14:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The words "works without faith is dead" and "faith without works is dead" speak volumes to me. They tell me that faith must precede our works but faith then is also continuously needed as the driver to even greater things.

So if faith is our trust and confidence in the unknown, what are our "works"? Are they in our control, at any level? Or are they predestined, like some church dogmas say?

To me, our works can be found in everything we do, in our family life, our social life, our work life, and mostly importantly in our personal lives - if we are not honest with ourselves then what are we?

I also believe that the focus on our works should be more on the "how" we approach life and not solely on the "what" we do in our lives. Without an intelligent and loving "intent" moving us forward in our works, then the "what" is becomes an empty shell. If we focus more on the "how" then the "what" takes care of itself, i.e. it begins to automatically reflect the divine principles as they are creations that originate from within.

All life is suffering, says the Buddha, because all outer life is temporary form and our attachment to that form becomes necessarily disappointing as all things pass away in time. But there is way to alleviate our suffering, the Buddha continues, and that is to believe and walk the 8 folded path, which contains the three attributes of Right Spirit, Right Thought and Right Action. These three alone say that we should focus on our Spirit, Mind and Body, aka our Life, Consciousness and Appearance.


By only having faith that God will somehow pick up His divine, and predestined -insert religion here- children while leaving the rest (and presumably most) of humanity to be like discarded seeds scattered to the wind, is to me an absurd way of thinking.

I believe evolution has something much more grand than the above. I believe that every one of will eventually awaken to the same state as someone like the Christ, i.e. "at One with the Father". Each of us will awaken, in time, to the glorious awareness of The Lord, our Father Who transits the Heavens.

This, therefore, is the "goal" of works, to align our little will with the greater Will, the Soul of our soul. By definition this alignment process unites one into all and all into One.

So hiw do we align our personal wills with that of an unseen Divine Will?

Only through the purification of the three bodies through which we we work, I believe. Only by the exercise of a Sincerity of Spirit, an Honesty of Mind, and a Detachment of Form, says the great Teacher, can we purify our approach to God. It's a simple formula that everyone can do right now, regardless of intelligence, religion or non-religion. Imagine the solutions to war, poverty and pollution if our politicians were to live everyday with these three simple approaches to life?

Through such approaches to life we will eventually discover that religions, doctrines and dogmas are not the sole determiners in our salvation. They are rather just the means to the end, like ladders to a roof.

Such are my thoughts. Walk gently everyone but open your eyes lest you stumble.

Neo
 
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James 2 14:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Thank you for sharing the Scripture Neo.

Neo said:
So if faith is our trust and confidence in the unknown, what are our "works"? Are they in our control, at any level? Or are they predestined, like some church dogmas say?


It's important to note that in the Scripture you provided, the author is addressing a Christians. God, I believe, has made some of us Christians by giving us the gift of faith, and has predestined good works for us to do.

Neo said:
To me, our works can be found in everything we do, in our family life, our social life, our work life, and mostly importantly in our personal lives - if we are not honest with ourselves then what are we?

Yes - I agree, good works could be done within relationships, be they family, friend, or work related.

Neo said:
By only having faith that God will somehow pick up His divine, and predestined -insert religion here- children while leaving the rest (and presumably most) of humanity to be like discarded seeds scattered to the wind, is to me an absurd way of thinking.

God, I believe Neo, does not desire that any should perish.

Neo said:
This, therefore, is the "goal" of works, to align our little will with the greater Will, the Soul of our soul. By definition this alignment process unites one into all and all into One.

It sounds good Neo, but I believe that until God gives us faith and saves us, our wills are fallen and we are prisoners of sin and separated from God.

Neo said:
Through such approaches to life we will eventually discover that religions, doctrines and dogmas are not the sole determiners in our salvation. They are rather just the means to the end, like ladders to a roof.

The sole determiner in our salvation, I believe Neo, is God.

Rich blessings.
 
Would one need to know the effort was pragmatic before becoming enslaved with a life-long Job? is that the mysterious pure pose for fixed statutes ... to get around ... as in that myth of a statute getting a life? Does that work for stoics as well .. as the tide comes and goes ...
 
Neo your quote ------So if faith is our trust and confidence in the unknown, what are our "works"?

It is not Faith in the unknown in my religion-----It is Faith in God's Word and Faith comes through hearing and doing His word to get the results God wants -----Jesus is alive so our Faith is alive and active through hearing and believing His Word which is also alive and active all according to scripture---we have to put the Faith we get by knowing His word into action and again follow His word as to what action to take -----it is not confidence and trust in the unknown ----it maybe in your Buddha Faith ----confidence in the unknown ---I don't know cause I don't follow Buddha ----I Follow Jesus Christ ----


Romans 10:17New King James Version (NKJV)

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


James 2:14-26GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)


We Show Our Faith by What We Do


14 My brothers and sisters, what good does it do if someone claims to have faith but doesn’t do any good things? Can this kind of faith save him?15 Suppose a believer, whether a man or a woman, needs clothes or food16 and one of you tells that person, “God be with you! Stay warm, and make sure you eat enough.” If you don’t provide for that person’s physical needs, what good does it do?17 In the same way, faith by itself is dead if it doesn’t cause you to do any good things.
 
So if faith is our trust and confidence in the unknown, what are our "works"? Are they in our control, at any level? Or are they predestined, like some church dogmas say?



a Christians faith is not in the unknown, it is in Jesus Christ , He Made Himself Known


Romans 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
 
Neo your quote ------So if faith is our trust and confidence in the unknown, what are our "works"?

It is not Faith in the unknown in my religion-----It is Faith in God's Word and Faith comes through hearing and doing His word to get the results God wants -----Jesus is alive so our Faith is alive and active through hearing and believing His Word which is also alive and active all according to scripture---we have to put the Faith we get by knowing His word into action and again follow His word as to what action to take -----it is not confidence and trust in the unknown ----it maybe in your Buddha Faith ----confidence in the unknown ---I don't know cause I don't follow Buddha ----I Follow Jesus Christ ----


Romans 10:17New King James Version (NKJV)

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


James 2:14-26GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)


We Show Our Faith by What We Do


14 My brothers and sisters, what good does it do if someone claims to have faith but doesn’t do any good things? Can this kind of faith save him?15 Suppose a believer, whether a man or a woman, needs clothes or food16 and one of you tells that person, “God be with you! Stay warm, and make sure you eat enough.” If you don’t provide for that person’s physical needs, what good does it do?17 In the same way, faith by itself is dead if it doesn’t cause you to do any good things.

Yes, you and Blackbelt are right, I was going by a quick dictionary definition of the word faith. But whether it is faith in the unknown, God's Word or faith in Jesus, it is still faith: "a strong belief or trust in someone or something", according to the Merriam-Webster definition.

So what are "works"? Are they simply "good things" as the version of Bible you just quoted says they are? Or are they they something more profound and meaningful? Do our works in life prepare us for salvation? Or are we saved just because we believe?


Oh, and by the way, in case you are interested, the Buddha said many things about faith, this being one of them:
On a long journey of human life, faith is the best of companions; it is the best refreshment on the journey; and it is the greatest property.
The Buddha
 
Neo, I believe that those people who are saved are so because God has given to them the gifts of faith and justification.
Ok, but what about those that God doesn't give these gifts to? What happens to them? Scattered seed to the wind, destined to die? You said above that God doesn't desire any to perish. So how can God give these gifts to some but not others?

Could, as an alternative scenario, these gifts always be offered to all, and it is up to us to take them or leave them? The first step of our long journey, therefore, would be have to be the acceptance of this faith, which would be an act of will on our part.

And then what are the next steps from there? Simply more faith, or is there a defined path of conscious evolution that humans must take, something beyond faith? Something that will turn believers into knowers? Could this be our "works", the path to enlightenment?
 
Ok, but what about those that God doesn't give these gifts to? What happens to them? Scattered seed to the wind, destined to die? You said above that God doesn't desire any to perish. So how can God give these gifts to some but not others?

Those God doesn't give the gifts to will ultimately be judged and condemned. God has predestined only some to glory. He is Sovereign, and so had the right to choose just who to predestine. At the same time, yes, God wants all to be saved.

Neo said:
Could, as an alternative scenario, these gifts always be offered to all, and it is up to us to take them or leave them? The first step of our long journey, therefore, would be have to be the acceptance of this faith, which would be an act of will on our part.

As an alternative scenario Neo, sure. However, that isn't the way things happen. It sounds nice, but at birth the human will is enslaved to sin. Thus, we all start out incapable of making such a choice. Thankfully God acts to save those He has chosen.

Neo said:
And then what are the next steps from there? Simply more faith, or is there a defined path of conscious evolution that humans must take, something beyond faith? Something that will turn believers into knowers? Could this be our "works", the path to enlightenment?

Believers should engage in good works as a testimony to their faith.
 
But how would people know good works without spark to enflame a light to carry on in the eternal darkness ... and love is like that surely disorienting those possessed with it ... unseen gifts I mean?

Thus God as the archetype in unknowing delays judgement ... not like real people that oppress anything of logic ... look how Jesus is put down in th temple by those preferring freedom of wile ... or screwing up as the so please ...

Is there a spark hidden in smudges on the page as satyrs and Bacchus is laid out force laughter ... Pronounce lott'r ... allowing for Lotta aerie things ... inflated? Some economists believe this drives egoe numbie rendered down to economy is all, mean business is supported by those that wile not a'rest to the weary ... thus Hebrews out of the land of imagination, Egyptian fallout?

Once the business factor wears out ... thought (from out there) befalls M! A farce Ide failure to se delight in d ed ark?
 
Let's see if I get this right -
God is all powerful
It is God's will that all be ssaved.
God has predestined our fate.
God has predestined only some to be saved.

Thus the wandering of Johnathan Swift ... he knew when to get on ...
 
Let's see if I get this right -
God is all powerful
It is God's will that all be ssaved.
God has predestined our fate.
God has predestined only some to be saved.

Seeler, I would say that it is God's desire that everyone be saved, rather than His will.
 
Is "everything's" wiles on this side of reality stronger than desire to know better? Could explain OBI's with borderline personalities that get to close to the edge of reality ... terminal Zoe-in?

Adds to the understanding of ZoeRueAster .. and archetypical Zoe o'logos ... and all those lost and Luce ND jinni ... tellalins in the genetic makeup ... that could tell where your in des tue ... as you were constructed out of parental loose of sense ... like blue glass .. a cool class of humanism to put it ... choose properly in ewe'r de Deuce in ... devilish probing into unseen domains? Mythical cover-ups to stimulate curiosity!

Some religions deny questioning ...
 
Seeler, I would say that it is God's desire that everyone be saved, rather than His will.

Also I should note - while I believe that God has predestined some for glory, I do not believe in double-predestination as the extreme Calvinists do. Anyway, that's my take on things @Seeler - what's yours? #predestination
 
Also I should note - while I believe that God has predestined some for glory, I do not believe in double-predestination as the extreme Calvinists do. Anyway, that's my take on things @Seeler - what's yours? #predestination
I would have to say that predestination is a mystery to me - perhaps part of the great mystery that is God. I don't understand it.
It seems to me to deny free will. If we are predestined to act in certain ways or be or do certain things, I don't see how we could choose not to do so. If God predestines a child to be killed by a drunk driver, I think God would also have to predestine someone to drink too much and then drive their car down that street at that time. Not my picture of a loving God.

Rather than dwell on predestination, which I don't understand and have never experienced, I think of the grace of God's love surrounding me, loving me, forgiving me, and in response to that love, I try to be a better person. Receiving love through grace, I try to pass it on.
I don't earn my reward through good works. I already have received my reward through grace. Any good works I do is in response to that grace.
 
I would have to say that predestination is a mystery to me - perhaps part of the great mystery that is God. I don't understand it.
It seems to me to deny free will. If we are predestined to act in certain ways or be or do certain things, I don't see how we could choose not to do so. If God predestines a child to be killed by a drunk driver, I think God would also have to predestine someone to drink too much and then drive their car down that street at that time. Not my picture of a loving God.

Rather than dwell on predestination, which I don't understand and have never experienced, I think of the grace of God's love surrounding me, loving me, forgiving me, and in response to that love, I try to be a better person. Receiving love through grace, I try to pass it on.
I don't earn my reward through good works. I already have received my reward through grace. Any good works I do is in response to that grace.


I believe that John argues that what you are describing (e.g. deciding that x is going to be killed by drunk driver) is "predeterminism", not predestination and that Calvinism believes in the latter but not the former. "Predestination" means that God has decided who is saved, but it does not mean he has decided any specifics about our lives.

Personally, I believe in limited free will, which is really predeterminism with some leeway for human will. The fact is that much of who and what we are and therefore what choices we make is decided by genes, how we were brought up, what our mothers ate and did while we were in the womb, and the various forces and laws of existence (e.g. we don't get a choice as to whether an earthquake destroys our home or a random cosmic ray mutates a gene giving us some kind of cancer or defect). Essentially, we do make choices but often the options available are limited by both our own nature and thinking as well as circumstances beyond our control so it's hardly wide-open free will.

I do not believe, oddly, in predestination. How it will end for me may be partly determined by my genes, general health, etc. but there's many variables at play. The complexities of existence are such that one simply cannot say from birth how I will die, though some outcomes may be more probably than others (e.g. I could have a fatal heart defect, making that my most likely cause of death, but get hit by a car before that defect actually kills me which is something no one could predict).
 
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I would have to say that predestination is a mystery to me - perhaps part of the great mystery that is God. I don't understand it. It seems to me to deny free will.

I believe that at birth we are all spiritually dead. As such Seeler, we don't the ability to choose to come to God and be given faith and salvation. At the same time, I believe that we do have free will in making other choices on the horizontal plain of life - things like what kind of car to drive, what to name a baby, what to wear to a wedding, etc.

Seeler said:
If we are predestined to act in certain ways or be or do certain things, I don't see how we could choose not to do so. If God predestines a child to be killed by a drunk driver, I think God would also have to predestine someone to drink too much and then drive their car down that street at that time. Not my picture of a loving God.

Here it sounds to me Seeler like you're describing predeterminism rather than predestination. What a dreadful kind of life it would be if we had no control over choices in our lives. We would be reduced to being sock puppets. When I speak of predestination, I'm speaking only of God selecting certain individuals for redemption and fellowship with Him.

Seeler said:
Rather than dwell on predestination, which I don't understand and have never experienced, I think of the grace of God's love surrounding me, loving me, forgiving me, and in response to that love, I try to be a better person. Receiving love through grace, I try to pass it on. I don't earn my reward through good works. I already have received my reward through grace. Any good works I do is in response to that grace.

That sounds great Seeler. I don't spend a great deal of time thinking about predestination either. I'm thankful I'm one of God's children, and I do good works to testify of His grace bestowed to me.
 
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