Judas: Who Was At Fault here?

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

Register Log in
BetteTheRed

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
Pronouns
She/Her/Her
Luke 22:1-6

Luke 22:47-48

To me, the key phrase in this is “then Satan entered Judas”. Only Luke and John explain Judas’ behaviour this way.

I think we have to assume that Satan plays a rather “trickster” role in this story, similar to that he played in Job. It is obviously Godde’s plan that Jesus be betrayed to his crucifixion, and Judas makes that possible, so Job is in fact doing Godde’s will, which is what the apocryphal gnostic Gospel of Judas claims – that Jesus, in fact, was directing Judas’s actions

Are humans just the puppet of Godde(s)? I know that John goes on to substantiate/flesh out the “why’s of the betrayal (with the sort of tempting ‘but he stole money’ red herring), but it still comes down to Godde corrupting Judas rather than the other way around.

I have always had a sneaking sympathy for Judas. He certainly feels like a pawn in the stories featuring him.
 
I do not buy the line about Satan entering Judas. I favour either he came to believe Jesus was going astray and needed to be corrected or stopped or he and Jesus had already planned it.
 
When messing with Goddes and mullah ... imagine the spectrum of expansions on the initiated myth!

Then consider what part common folk would accept before sociological eruption! Given the numbers in the totalitarian group and the commoner's expansion rate. Is there a need for concern about metaphor?

Can you see a viable critical point? As in nuclear half-lives there are degradations of something while something else flies out there ... angels in a shades ... inclusive of the twilight zone ... thus the legendary Ego ... poorly known!
 
Can a decent myth be actually bought into or just observed from arm's length for fear of the synchronicity ... generates solid resonance ... a hummer!

Nothing survives without a decent narration ... I forget who informed me of that counter to what my ancestors laid on me! Maybe a stranger over the great, dark, formless void? Abysmal rites ... yet if you create holes ... you could fall through ... some of us like clear crap just appear as floaters in the swamp ... few see us adequately ... it is impossible, due to alien essence!

The plunge into linguistics resembles an eternal word ... that's the counter god ... sometimes just the Count! He may appear as Peter at the gate controlling the tides ... risers and fallacies? Imagine balancing that act ... tis appalling ...
 
Last edited:
I am partial to the idea that Judas became disillusioned with what Jesus was trying to do. He may have been hoping to force the issue, or, failing that, at least pick up a few shekels for his troubles. Seems a bit of extra income is often a powerful motivator.
 
Agreeing that Judas can be seen as a pawn here. It is an aspect of the story which has always bothered me.

Did God preordain the death of Jesus on the cross for our salvation? If this is the case, I don't really see any other way to look at Judas and his betrayal of Christ.

Someone had to do it, right? The Roman soldiers who carry out the execution are in much the same situation. They, too, play a role in ensuring that God's will is done.

Matthew's gospel has Judas expressing regret for his actions.

Luke has a Centurion saying that Jesus was "truly the son of God" after He died on the cross.

I recall there are some very different details about the Crucifixion in the four gospel accounts. Will take a look later and see if these expressions of regret are paralleled elsewhere.
 
Redbaron said:
I am partial to the idea that Judas became disillusioned with what Jesus was trying to do. He may have been hoping to force the issue, or, failing that, at least pick up a few shekels for his troubles. Seems a bit of extra income is often a powerful motivator.
Click to expand...
Well, if we are looking to naturalistic explanations, what if Judas was a plant all along? I don't recall there being a "joining" story for him like there is for other Apostles so we do not really know where he came from. The temple elites slipped a ringer into the group. The suicide was Judas realizing that he had actually come to love and respect Jesus after all, but only after the final task of his "mission" and payment. Probably just my writer's brain going into overdrive, though.

paradox3 said:
Did God preordain the death of Jesus on the cross for our salvation? If this is the case, I don't really see any other way to look at Judas and his betrayal of Christ.
Click to expand...
I wonder how much of this is the Gospel writers wrestling with what Judas did, though. Explanations like "Satan went into him" or he was acting on God's will seem like people trying to rationalize what happened. "How could one of the Twelve have done this?" has to be a question that the followers were wrestling with right from the trial onwards. Explanations like the idea that Judas was a disaffected Zealot or the one I just suggested are really a modern attempt to do the same.
 
@Mendalla

Does it say in Scripture anywhere that Judas was doing God's will? I am not aware of this.

I suggested it my post and I wasn't trying to rationalize what happened. I was trying to build on the idea of Judas being a pawn. If it was God's will that Jesus die on the cross, someone had to carry it out.

On another note, why was betrayal by one of the twelve necessary? It seems curious to me that the Romans needed assistance to identify Jesus in the crowd.
 
paradox3 said:
Does it say in Scripture anywhere that Judas was doing God's will?
Click to expand...
I thought one of version kind of implied it in something Jesus says to him, or at least suggests Jesus knows it is coming. I'll take a quick surf through the Gospels. Though, if you run with my theory, maybe Jesus had the plan figured out and had worked it into his plans. Sneaky, eh. Turning the priests' plan against them.
 
paradox3 said:
Does it say in Scripture anywhere that Judas was doing God's will?
Click to expand...
There is this quote from Jesus in Matthew, "But all this has taken place, so that the scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled." He says it at the end of the arrest scene in Gethsemane, implying a certain amount of predestination was involved in those events which would seem to include the "Judas Kiss". Mark has a briefer version of the same line. However, Luke has "But this is your hour and the power of darkness!" in the exact same spot, which seems to fit better with his line about Satan going into Judas and kind of removes the implication of prophecy being fulfilled.

So why do Matthew and Mark seem to suggest this was all in fulfilment of prophecy, while Luke suggests it was the Devil getting up to no good? Or was the Devil himself an agent of the same prophecy (seems plausible since Satan is still ultimately an agent of God)? But if Luke thought that, why not mention it?
 
Mendalla said:
There is this quote from Jesus in Matthew, "But all this has taken place, so that the scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled." He says it after the arrest scene in Gethsemane, implying a certain amount of predestination was involved in those events which would seem to include the "Judas Kiss". Mark has a briefer version of the same line. However, Luke has "But this is your hour and the power of darkness!" which seems to fit better with his line about Satan going into Judas and kind of removes the implication of prophecy being fulfilled.
Click to expand...
Jesus also predicts betrayal by one of the twelve at the Last Supper
 
Are the other comments about Judean sorts and the demonic Samaritans that care for the diverse, damaged little sectors?

There some tomes and texts diverge ...
 
On another note, why was betrayal by one of the twelve necessary? It seems curious to me that the Romans needed assistance to identify Jesus in the crowd.
[/QUOTE]
Why indeed? This seems odd to me too.
And in John, doesnt he out himself?

Was he as well known or as much of a threat, as we are led to believe?
 
Interesting that the well known betrayal for thirty coins of silver happens only in Matthew.

Mark and Luke both mention money but the amount is not specified.

And, as stated in the OP, Luke and John tell us Satan entered Judas.

Matthew gives us a regretful Judas who attempts to return the 30 silver coins and subsequently hangs himself.

The Centurion who has insight into Jesus after his death appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke.
 
If we remove the supernatural elements from this story, we have a disciple who betrayed his leader and may have regretted it later.

Although this has got to be the worst example, it is not the only occasion where the disciples let Jesus down. Peter denied him three times. Some of them fell asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane. And they often misunderstood his teachings.

It speaks to their humanity. Jesus still needed these imperfect human beings who were his twelve closest followers.

Does this say anything to those of us who follow in the present day?
 
paradox3 said:
Luke and John tell us Satan entered Judas.
Click to expand...
Which could be their way of explaining his betrayal, "The Devil made him do it," but could also be more. The Devil had a role in God's master plan for Jesus or something. Which then has you wondering a bit about God themselves, as the Gnostics did.

(The Gnostics held that the God of the Bible is actually an evil "demiurge" and that Jesus was sent by the real, higher God to undo the mess the Demiurge made of the world. Roughly.)
 
Some fool said we couldn't learn without mistakes pointing to one way being wrong ... requiring a back step!

Odd stuff in a world of perfect occurrences ... among those hat cannot accept mistakes! It's great rite ...
 
Back to the BPoTW without consulting any of the parallel stories.

Have we (in the church) been overemphasizing the role of the Romans throughout the last several years?

The gospels, John in particular, can give rise to antisemitism as we know. So we have pushed back by focusing more on the Romans.

Yes, the Jewish leaders were in a tough spot and trying to survive amid Roman occupation. But the text is quite clear that the Jewish authorities wanted to get rid of Jesus.

Could the purpose of Judas be to emphasize that Jesus was betrayed by his own people?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top