Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Disability doesn't define a person. It defines the degree to which a person experiences barriers in society. The 'disability' is in society.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Northwind points out something very important, and that is the notion of multiple identities. Disability is not a person's sole identity. Rather, there are intersections of identities. Despite what Kimmio wants to suggest, disability does not universally define a person, nor does it universally define their experience.

You say you don't want to talk about my son, you want to talk about disability rights. To remove my son and my son's experiences from the conversation implies that you only want to talk about the experiences of people with disabilities that fit your preferred definition and discussion of disabilities. You can't do that. Similarly when you dismiss my contribution to the discussion you are dismissing the academic contribution to disability discourse of a caregiver for an individual with profound disabilities. Somehow you have decided you are the arbiter of what constitutes an appropriate contribution to the discussion of disabilities based on whether it supports your ideas and arguments.

Whether you care to admit it or not there are many people with disabilities, and their allies, who work in a broad range of services and academia who would nuance your ideas. None of us would dismiss the social model outright, but many of us would bring a level of flexibility and nuance to the conversation that you are unprepared to offer. That level of inflexibility does a greater disservice to people with disabilities that I think you can appreciate.

I won't discuss your son because I might make presumptions or hold opinions that would hurt your feelings and just in case I don't want to do that.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Could we say that a person with severe impairments whose primary barriers are not in society but are with their impairment do not experience disability, but rather, predominently their impairment? Is that fair? To seperate the personal experience of impairment from the experience of disability? So impairment is impairment but disability is what society does?

 

[Northwind]

I would also say she is more of an exception - PWDs are underrepresented in professional positions. One of the reasons (not the only one) I chose SW related work - was because I assumed it would be easier, less discriminatory to succeed in it. Not quite true in reality but probably better than some fields.

So, does this mean her disability no longer counts, or that she isn't so disabled because she succeeded, or something else?

She did have to leave her country of origin because of it. And being a visible minority would then open her up to other prejudices on top of it.

We don't know that for sure. She certainly had the opportunity to leave her country of origin. Does that mean it was a bad thing? We don't know that for sure.

So, if a PWD goes down a certain path, let's say to earn a university degree, and is not successful is that because of oppression?

You said society needs to change. Does that mean PWD's are unable to succeed until society changes?

What do you say about "protective factors", disability and oppression?

 

[Northwind]

Could we say that a person with severe impairments whose primary barriers are not in society but are with their impairment do not experience disability, but rather, predominently their impairment? Is that fair? To seperate the personal experience of impairment from the experience of disability? So impairment is impairment but disability is what society does?

Could you please clarify this statement?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think we have to seperate impairment from disability. They are two different but interrelated things. That is important.


So maybe your friend is impaired but has not been disabled by attitudes and systems outside of herself towards her impairment. Or, maybe, like many, she has struggled with keeping up to 'normal' and that managed to escape people's notice that she was put in a position to have to do that - and she has succeeded in doing that. But I have never met her or asked her about her experience. I have met successful people with disabilities. One boss went from a disability rights activist to a management position in public service. She certainly deals with barriers but she is resolved to change things about society in whatever position she's in. It's always about improving the lives of people with disabilities. I don't have that kind of fortitude or support as she does.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Could you please clarify this statement?

I don't understand what isn't clear about it.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Impairment is the person's experience of their medical condition. Disability is the barriers to equality put up by society.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

....so, someone with a long term medical condition who is not experiencing barriers in society is impaired but not disabled. However...invisible barriers like other's assumptions - assumptions of doctors and care givers that a person with an impairment might internalize are also disabling factors.

 

[ChemGal]

Could we say that a person with severe impairments whose primary barriers are not in society but are with their impairment do not experience disability, but rather, predominently their impairment? Is that fair? To seperate the personal experience of impairment from the experience of disability? So impairment is impairment but disability is what society does?

Or can we accept that there's more to disability than the social model?

 

[Delightful Life]

Or can we accept that there's more to disability than the social model?

That there is no one model/BS that accounts for everything -- like tools in a toolbox, different tools are good for different tasks and when you use a different tool, different aspects of reality become important and other aspects become unimportant? Nifty, that :3

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Or can we accept that there's more to disability than the social model?

There are other models but they are not the best models...because...In the interest of human rights it's better to seperate the terms 'impairment' from 'disability' because disability recognizes the discriminatory factors of normative expectations in society. So as far as I and proponents of the social model are concerned that's where the other models fall short and that is why the UN and WHO have adopted the social model.

There isn't more to disability. There is impairment seperate from but related to disability.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

That there is no one model/BS that accounts for everything -- like tools in a toolbox, different tools are good for different tasks and when you use a different tool, different aspects of reality become important and other aspects become unimportant? Nifty, that :3

But it all depends on what tools are important to whom and why. Of course to the medical establishment and the bean counters the medical model and it's offshoot 'expert' model is more important. To the people struggling for equality the social model is most important. To the care givers projecting their own values of 'normal' and 'suffering' the rehabilitative model is important. But who are we talking about here? Who is most affected by the application of all these models? Hence, the social model by and for PWDs.

 

[Northwind]

I think we have to seperate impairment from disability. They are two different but interrelated things. That is important.


So maybe your friend is impaired but has not been disabled by attitudes and systems outside of herself towards her impairment. Or, maybe, like many, she has struggled with keeping up to 'normal' and that managed to escape people's notice that she was put in a position to have to do that - and she has succeeded in doing that. But I have never met her or asked her about her experience. I have met successful people with disabilities. One boss went from a disability rights activist to a management position in public service. She certainly deals with barriers but she is resolved to change things about society in whatever position she's in. It's always about improving the lives of people with disabilities. I don't have that kind of fortitude or support as she does.

She most certainly has experienced discrimination over her life time. I don't believe she has been so worried about being normal. I think she has just wanted to be a productive member of society and is willing to overcome barriers to achieve this.

 

[Northwind]

@Kimmio would you please answer my questions in post #1644

 

[Northwind]

Could we say that a person with severe impairments whose primary barriers are not in society but are with their impairment do not experience disability, but rather, predominently their impairment? Is that fair? To seperate the personal experience of impairment from the experience of disability? So impairment is impairment but disability is what society does?

So I've read this again and I will try to clarify it. So if someone has impairments and somehow does not experience societal oppression, then they are impaired? If a person is impaired and does experience social barriers then that person is disabled......have I got that right?

How do you determine which is what? What if they have decided to ignore society "rules" and live their life as they see fit?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

She most certainly has experienced discrimination over her life time. I don't believe she has been so worried about being normal. I think she has just wanted to be a productive member of society and is willing to overcome barriers to achieve this.

That's great. How much better would it be if there were no barriers?

 

[Northwind]

There are barriers in life for all of us to some degree. Barriers can make us stronger. I haven't always gotten what I've wanted, have you?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

So I've read this again and I will try to clarify it. So if someone has impairments and somehow does not experience societal oppression, then they are impaired? If a person is impaired and does experience social barriers then that person is disabled......have I got that right?

How do you determine which is what? What if they have decided to ignore society "rules" and live their life as they see fit?

I am only trying to seperate impairment from disability to highlight the difference (and I'll use myself as an example for illustration of my point) between impairment and disability. At home, if I experience stiffness and balance problems getting things done before work and it takes more time - that is me experiencing my impairment. If, in addition to the time it takes being unpredictable depending on how I feel, on the way to work I have difficulty navigating high curbs or going around sidewalk repairs/ construction, I miss the bus, and I am late and I get reprimanded at work for not fitting expectations about timeliness - that is me experiencing disability. I didn't do anything 'wrong', it's the way my impairment interacted with the visible and invisible barriers - i.e. expectations about normal time things take, and sidewalk issues.

 

[Waterfall]

@DaisyJane

I understand your son has physical suffering. I don't want to comment about your son. You are his caregiver. I want to talk about disability rights and PWDs as whole individuals in their own right.

Holy cow this sounds like you are excluding Daisy's son.