Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

There is a danger here and I don't care if people think I am being narrow minded. Some people are just cruel. If a doctor ever suggests suicide to me if I complain of chronic depression, I am taking it to the press. And I think social service groups should on their guard to receive any reports of such suggestions experienced by their clients - particularily homeless.

 

[Lastpointe]

Still no suggestions for things to craft into law I see.

Always better to fear monger than discuss actual ideas

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You're out of your f***ing gourd. Doctors are going to be prescribing suicide, are they?

Seriously, you are so blinded by emotion, you aren't even listening to yourself, let alone others.

You're out of your guorde, maybe for not recognizing any problem with this decision or with looking at a homeless or depressed and person's suffering as purely medical.

Prescribing. No. But if a hopeless homeless person or someone with a history of depression and hardship comes in and says life feels hopeless - there is more of a chance now than there was on Thursday that suicide intervention or counselling or a social worker assessment would not happen.

 

[Lastpointe]

Unbelievable.

 

[DaisyJane]

Ditto


Get a grip kimmio. No one is going to counsel suicide

Thank goodness someone said it before me. My reaction was closer to chansen's. I have a crapload of work to do and I really ought to return. This has been an interesting distraction.

 

[DaisyJane]

So ... this Supreme Court decision has no bearing on your reality ... it is really about nothing ... people that are capable of consenting were always capable of consenting and if they could find no legal recourse they could capably end their lives with or without legal permission. In Matthews case you have no ability to influence the situation?

Yes. I know. This situation has no bearing on my particular story with Matthew. If your read my original post you would know I have stated that upfront.

You lost me.

 

[ChemGal]

You're out of your guorde, maybe for not recognizing any problem with this decision or with looking at a homeless or depressed and person's suffering as purely medical.

Prescribing. No. But if a hopeless homeless person or someone with a history of depression and hardship comes in and says life feels hopeless - there is more of a chance now than there was on Thursday that suicide intervention or counselling or a social worker assessment would not happen.

I think it's much more likely that it will lead to someone who has lost hope, going in to see a doctor to discuss suicide when they wouldn't have bothered seeing a doctor before and the doctor offering them some other options, things that may help.

 

[Seeler]

I agree with you LP. As I pointed out earlier, I am worried that specialson, aka Matthew, may suffer needlessly because he cannot consent.

Today there was a detailed obit in our newspaper. It shared the story of a woman like Matthew who died over the weekend. She lived her last few years in total pain because of her cerebral palsy and the deformities that had developed following years of spasticity. I read that article and my heart broke. That is my greatest fear. I am not afraid that some roving group of physicians will start overdosing people with disabilities because they are cheaper dead. I am afraid that I will have to watch Matthew suffer for a prolonged period of time with poorly managed pain because he does not have the abilities to tell us his wishes, or even to effectively communicate his pain. I am worried his death will be an agonizing journey through deterioration and I will be forced to watch with no ability to influence the situation.

Daisy, I remember meeting Matthew for a short time at a WonderCafe gathering. To say I understand your worries would be to belittle them because I have never experienced them myself. Thank you for sharing your concerns. Thank you for all you have done over the years in educating us about some of the problems disabled children and their parents face.

 

[Lastpointe]

I agree

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Still no suggestions for things to craft into law I see.

Always better to fear monger than discuss actual ideas

It was your comnent about me saying the depressed homeless man's and suffering was because he was homeless being too presumptuous of me that really made clear an awful side of this decision.

 

[chansen]

I think it's much more likely that it will lead to someone who has lost hope, going in to see a doctor to discuss suicide when they wouldn't have bothered seeing a doctor before and the doctor offering them some other options, things that may help.

That's an excellent point. I continue to really appreciate your insights.

 

[Seeler]

No he shouldn't. He should see a social worker for living supports and counselling. And yes I do think his homelessness is a factor in his mental health. Not presumptuous at all in any bad way.

Of course he should have supports and counselling. It is a disgrace in this country that so many are homeless. No one that I've seen on this thread is arguing against providing social support, housing, counselling, and adequate income for the homeless or others with mental illness. In fact I opened a whole thread to discuss problems faced by various people and how we as society can help them.
I still don't see how preventing competent adults to make decisions for themselves (not for others) interfers with providing all the help possible for the disadvantaged.

 

[Lastpointe]

No one else does either seeler,except kimmio

 

[revjohn]

So...I expect that at some point in the near future a doctor will suggest suicide to me or a peer like me during a depressive episode.

That would fly directly in the face of what was upheld in the recent ruling of the Supreme Court in Canada. Particularly the following:

The trial judge, relying on Rodriguez, concluded that the object of the prohibition was to protect vulnerable persons from being induced to commit suicide at a time of weakness (para. 1190). All the parties except Canada accept this formulation of the object.

Which basically means that everyone involved in the hearing agreed with the trial judge that the object of the prohibition was to protect vulnerable persons. The ruling offered by the Supreme Court of Canada does not eliminate that protection. The ruling offered by the Supreme Court of Canada addresses the overbreadth on the grounds that an absolute prohibition against Physician Assisted Death imposes unnecessary pain and suffering on certain individuals who do not meet the threshold for being considered vulnerable individuals.

What is missing, at this point, from a legislative perspective would be the rubric used to separate individuals from those who are considered vulnerable and those who will not be considered vulnerable. The Supreme Court of Canada made it very clear that it is the purview of Parliament and the various Provincial Legislatures to craft the legislation which will be used to make that determination.

It is also important to note that the declaration made by the Supreme Court of Canada is suspended for a 12 month period. Meaning that functionally, nothing changed between the date of the ruling and any date prior to a year from the ruling. The absolute prohibition is still in play and will be for roughly the next year.

That is the time the Government of Canada and the various Provincial and Territorial Legislatures will have to address the issue.

I would offer the following counsel to any and all who feel strongly about the declaration made with respect to Physician Assisted Death. Contact your MP, MPP/MLA/MHA with your concerns ASAP. As this is an election year you should do so sooner rather than later.

Time invested attempting to change points of view in this particular forum will not move our politicians one way or another.

 

[Justme]

There is a danger here and I don't care if people think I am being narrow minded. Some people are just cruel. If a doctor ever suggests suicide to me if I complain of chronic depression, I am taking it to the press. And I think social service groups should on their guard to receive any reports of such suggestions experienced by their clients - particularily homeless.

I think you are sick. I think you are far sicker than you even acknowledge. I think I have been very fair to you and have made decent suggestions - everytime that I make a concrete suggestion you pull up another red herring and scream that the sky is falling. I note that you said nothing about my suggestions on how to communicate more effective. I am truly worried for you. You said you have a new doctor - I doubt s/he would have time to read these posts but in my opinion I wish they could be shown to him/her so that s/he can see that you need some mental supports. I also note that you are posting all day and all night - lack of sleep if really hard on one's mental and physical state.

My husband has also strongly suggested that I put you on ignore. And I guess I will do that.

(I would also like to report you for what you said about @Pinga who I do not know in real life but you ascribe awful things to her).

I hope you are feeling better soon and pray that you are able to get some help.

 

[Ritafee]

The court has listed some ...

Age, terminal illness, extreme unrelenting pain, ......

What restrictions should be in place

A meeting with three doctors?
A writen living will?
Documented use of pain medication far in excess of normal use
A two day waiting period?
Agreement from next of kin?
Witness by a notary public? ...

Why complain when it is so much more imaginative that you actually have choices ... the supreme court has ruled ...not the people ...and the parliament will decide how to play out the ruling ... not the people.

 

[Seeler]

There is a danger here and I don't care if people think I am being narrow minded. Some people are just cruel. If a doctor ever suggests suicide to me if I complain of chronic depression, I am taking it to the press. And I think social service groups should on their guard to receive any reports of such suggestions experienced by their clients - particularily homeless.

I wouldn't blame you if you did. You would be well within your rights.

 

[RitaTG]

.....Why complain when it is so much more imaginative that you actually have choices ... the supreme court has ruled ...not the people ...and the parliament will decide how to play out the ruling ... not the people.

Ummmmm ....is this not what we elect a parliament for????

 

[Justme]

I just went to put you on ignore and I note that you talk about wasting time - and if you enjoy wasting time then you're not wasting time - maybe this is what this is for you and you are wasting your time and ours because you find it fun. My husband who is not an "F" (for those of you who know Myers Brigg) thinks your a troll. I disagreed and said I thought you believed in what you were saying but now I'm not too sure.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Of course he should have supports and counselling. It is a disgrace in this country that so many are homeless. No one that I've seen on this thread is arguing against providing social support, housing, counselling, and adequate income for the homeless or others with mental illness. In fact I opened a whole thread to discuss problems faced by various people and how we as society can help them.
I still don't see how preventing competent adults to make decisions for themselves (not for others) interfers with providing all the help possible for the disadvantaged.

And my point is that a homeless depressed person is still a competent adult - Lastpointe says s/ he should be allowed to choose assisted suicide and that I am being presumptuous that his/ her suffering is due to homelessness. That is very offensive, not to mention frightening that people even think that it is presumptuous to look at all the factors in his suffering not just the diagnosis. And that requires a social worker, because as Carolla said it's not a doctor's business to assess income (but on the flip side of the down side to having a disability is that companies like the ferry corp think an inteusive means test is reasonable just to help a person live a closer to normal life - the world can be hypocritical and cruel). I can't believe this.