Well not once is the serpent in the garden of eden referred to as Satan anywhere in the bible.
Adam & Eve are bad, bad people. Or are they? (do I even need to put the chapter reference here? Genesis 2:4-3:24)
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BetteTheRed
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I see the serpent, though, as the same figure that argued with Yahweh about the fate of Job?
To me, this serpent, tempter, "advocate" parallels the trickster figure in indigenous stories, and the Anansi character in African tales.
To me, this serpent, tempter, "advocate" parallels the trickster figure in indigenous stories, and the Anansi character in African tales.
Although, why does Jesus compare himself to the serpent that Moses erected?
BetteTheRed
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Interesting idea. Moses was dealing with an epidemic of serpents/snakes who were killing the Israelites following him towards the promised land.
But in the Book of Numbers 21:4-9, God told Moses to erect another fiery snake on a pole and those who looked upon it would be healed and protected from dying from the other fiery snake bites.
BetteTheRed
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Yes! So snakes are both deadly and salvation!
It is the snake on the cross that heals the deadly serpent bites. Drags some metaphorical meaning into the New Testament, yes?
It is the snake on the cross that heals the deadly serpent bites. Drags some metaphorical meaning into the New Testament, yes?
Not the snake that healed the bites, but God.....but later people started to worship the snake.
During my Harvard doctoral studies I regularly dined with a scientist who was doing post-doctoral work on "animal altruism," i e. on the evolutionary mechanisms that allowed various species to survive through behaviors that simulate human ethical conduct both within a species and at times in symbiotic mutually beneficial relationships among different species. Of course, he, like most biologists, would find the claim that animals experience some awareness of right and wrong a crude anthropomorphism.
Now to Jim and Waterfall's questions:
What does the Yahwist author mean by "godlike?" Surely this must somehow relate to humanity's status as "in the image and likeness of God" in the Priestly creation narrative. But what does that mean? The Hebrew for "image" and "likeness" is the language of statues which powerful kings set up in their absence to signify their power and authority there. In that sense we represent God's presence and authority over the earth as divine surrogates who have stewardship over nature and therefore are allowed to create either a paradise or an ecological disaster. This surrogate status is activated by the birth and honing of our conscience as our compass for global management.
The identity of the "us" in both creation stories is complicated by the plurality of the noun "Elohim" (God). The divine "us" is either a literary "we" in conformity with the plural noun or a reference to some "heavenly council" (angels?), who assist in the creation process.
Now to Jim and Waterfall's questions:
What does the Yahwist author mean by "godlike?" Surely this must somehow relate to humanity's status as "in the image and likeness of God" in the Priestly creation narrative. But what does that mean? The Hebrew for "image" and "likeness" is the language of statues which powerful kings set up in their absence to signify their power and authority there. In that sense we represent God's presence and authority over the earth as divine surrogates who have stewardship over nature and therefore are allowed to create either a paradise or an ecological disaster. This surrogate status is activated by the birth and honing of our conscience as our compass for global management.
The identity of the "us" in both creation stories is complicated by the plurality of the noun "Elohim" (God). The divine "us" is either a literary "we" in conformity with the plural noun or a reference to some "heavenly council" (angels?), who assist in the creation process.
Those self-centered on the I of 1 nature cannot appreciate the plural nature of the great psyche ... because getting beyond a single thread would get into troublesome complexity ... when attempting to render simple the complexity observed! The old KISS Prin.
It just doesn't pass inspection (muster) from a wider perspective ...
Mendalla
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I think Bette's point still stands. Is that not what happened to Christianity? Jesus became the focus rather than God?
Thus the love of awareness of what is sacred (hidden) in the word ... and great powers have strove to keep this out of the understanding of common folk.
For what reason readers can form a conjecture ... as part and parcel of the work of free enlightenment ... a job given all the false advertising in multiple fields ... such falsity may be more disruptive than a touch of intellect!
Yet, look what advertising does to a common soul! Want is incited ...
Sorry Bette, didn't realized we were saying the same thing.
But the other thing is, by Jesus himself comparing himself to the Snake on the stick, is he saying the same thing through foreshadowing in John or am I (we) reading something into it that shouldn't be read into it?
BetteTheRed
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Shouldn't? By whose authority?
GordW
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The writer of the Gospel of John certainly used that metaphor in chapter 3.
I hear what you're saying, but with Jesus having such little recorded dialogue in the NT, and here he is supposedly saying this in John, it would tend to turn Christianity based on Christ worship off one of it's main focus in worshipping Christ. So I just wanted to make sure that I am understanding this right.....is he suggesting that we shouldn't be worshipping him or that he is a healer for the people? (spiritually and physically) but not God or thus God?
I assume Christianity would say, it is foreshadowing that Christ would be crucified on a stick (cross) but wasn't it Hezakiah that eventually destroyed the bronze snake(called Nushatan) that Moses had made along with the images of Asherahs, alters and other religious images because people were worshipping them? Was Hezakiah told to do this by God? So if it was foreshadowing, should we not be worshipping Jesus? Maybe just be believing what he's saying?
In John 3:14:15 Jesus says that he is to be lifted up and whoever believes in him will have eternal life...... is he referring to himself or God or himself being God?
Sorry for the diversion from the Garden of Eden, but that little snaky has brought me here.
In John 3:14:15 Jesus says that he is to be lifted up and whoever believes in him will have eternal life...... is he referring to himself or God or himself being God?
Sorry for the diversion from the Garden of Eden, but that little snaky has brought me here.
These 2 Jesus sayings must be understood together. Note the theme of the atoning significance of lifting up Jesus on the cross:
"And just was Moses lifted up the Serpent in the wilderness, so the must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life (John 3:14-15).
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people unto myself (12:32)."
One implication is that all people will be drawn to Christ in worship.
But should we be drawn to him to worship? Didn't God tell Hezekiah to destroy the Nehushtan to put the focus back on God?
Jesus repeatedly accepts worship from His followers and the NT repeatedly commands us to praise and thank Christ for what He has done for us, i. e. to worship Him. Indeed, it can be argued that the main reason the NT church switched the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday is because Jesus rose on Easter Sunday and we need to worship Him on that day in honor of His resurrection as the heart of our faith.
Jesus does say a few times to "worship the lord your God and serve only him" in Mathew and Luke. In Isaiah God says there is no other God before me, for I am God and there is no one else.
It was humans that changed the day to Sunday.....the Sabbath was originally to honour the seventh day of creation.....the day God rested.
Sunday is also called the lords day.....the same day as those who worshipped the sun god and now they worship the son....good way to bring those pagans to church......Sun Day. But perhaps the day isn't a concern to a timeless God anyway.