Adam & Eve are bad, bad people. Or are they? (do I even need to put the chapter reference here? Genesis 2:4-3:24)

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BetteTheRed said:
Many animals know when they have mis-behaved according to the rules of the critters they live with. An awareness of "bad behaviour" is conscience.
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Male wolves are aware of the consequences of seeking sex from she-wolves under the alpha male's control. That is a far cry from an awareness of right and wrong.
BetteTheRed said:
I don't confuse them at all, although they are related concepts. If you are not self-conscious, you are unlikely to have a conscience. I refuse to eat octopi (and I transfer that unwillingness to squid and cuttlefish). I really resist consuming anything that might be smarter than me.
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What you still don't get is this: Nakedness is a Jewish concept of the felt need to cover up (fig leaves, etc.) and by extension to conceal wrong conduct and motives; and thus the biblical concept of nakedness generates the image of being "clothed with righteousness." Right and wrong in this sense is alien to animal consciousness, despite their awareness of when they have antagonized rivals in their species or other species. Even apart from that, you keep overlooking the stories 2nd lesson, acquired "godlikeness." It is the combination of both lessons that is the point, a combination th;at denies you the right to draw an inference about human vs. animal "conscience" from the story.
 
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How do we distinguish between right and wrong? What is covered by this concept of right and wrong? I do not see many politicians demonstrating willingness to choose right over wrong. They prefer to do what is politically expedient.
 
jimkenney12 said:
How do we distinguish between right and wrong? What is covered by this concept of right and wrong? I do not see many politicians demonstrating willingness to choose right over wrong. They prefer to do what is politically expedient.
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I look at the "Tweedledum" vs "Tweedledee" nature of much Western politics (and religion) and think that humanity has still not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.
 
Also, I'd like a definition, somewhere, of how "conscience" differs from "awareness of consequences". And Mystic, as usual, it was egregiously sexist and violent of you, to use the alpha male wolf's (purported) domination of bitches to illustrate it.
 
Self-awareness, self-conscious, conscience seem related. An important developmental stage is becoming aware of how one's behaviour is seen and evaluated by others. Another developmental stage for children is learning their society's rules about acceptable behaviour. On the face of this story, Adam and Eve came to be aware of their society's rules and self aware of how their behaviour fit those rules. There is nothing inherently wrong about being naked, but it is condemned by Jewish and other religions and cultures. The more we discuss this story, the more it feels like a coming of age story in some ways and reflection in other ways on the exchange of one way of life for another.
 
jimkenney12 said:
How do we distinguish between right and wrong? What is covered by this concept of right and wrong? I do not see many politicians demonstrating willingness to choose right over wrong. They prefer to do what is politically expedient.
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BetteTheRed said:
I look at the "Tweedledum" vs "Tweedledee" nature of much Western politics (and religion) and think that humanity has still not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.
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As I see it, and this is more philosophical than Biblical, humans exist in a state of tension. Our notion of "right vs. wrong" is mostly about relationship and how we live together without driving each other to homicide. But there is also a biological imperative towards self-preservation and self-continuation that leads us to see things from a very individual personal standpoint. A "WE matter first" perspective.

The question is not which is right. Both are natural imperatives that are part of being human (or any other sapient species). What is really needed for us to exist in a balance. Yes, we matter, but not first. We and our neighbour matter equally. The fact is, living with "right and wrong" based on relationship ultimately benefits our self-preservation and self-continuation.

The problem is that our society has promoted the idea of competition as the basis for everything. It has taught us to see life as a zero-sum game and that our neighbour's success somehow hurts us. WE matter first and WE have to win, not them.

In reality, we can both succeed and have good lives without that hurting each other.

And that's not just a problem in politics, though we see some pretty egregious examples there. It's a problem in business, it's a problem in organized religion, it's a problem in just about any place humans have to live and work in relationship with other humans.

And I do think the Eden myth hits on that point to an extent. The problem is that, again, our religious tradition has tended to interpret that myth from a certain perspective that doesn't recognize that.

/end semi-relevant rant :)
 
No apologies about the instinctive amoral deference of male wolves to the alpha male's threat because it eloquent exposes Bette's crude anthropomorphism in analyzing evolved animal patters of conduct. Right and wrong are abstract concepts alien to animal awareness that cannot be reduced to consequences. It would be wrong to mistreat any race, even if doing so helped one fulfill a desired agenda that makes one happy. Also, right and wrong take us into the area of motives in a way that does not apply to animals. In any case, the A & E myth is about becoming "godlike' in the process of learning to distinguish good from evil and that connection is far removed from the realm of instinctive animal patterns of conduct, which are in any case the furthest thing from the mind of the Yahwist author who composed this myth. Bette's inference is as absurd as speculation about how the characters of Jesus' parables will behave in the next few days.
 
The conflict between anima and animus .. irresolvable chaos until the more alien of the two is released ... thus a stretch of processing!

How long a process to uncover the hidden eternal? We can't see it from here ... tis the great beyond ... thus as mortal a long walk a head of us?

Chaos extends ...
 
Mystic said:
No apologies about the instinctive amoral deference of male wolves to the alpha male's threat because it eloquent exposes Bette's crude anthropomorphism in analyzing evolved animal patters of conduct. Right and wrong are abstract concepts alien to animal awareness that cannot be reduced to consequences. It would be wrong to mistreat any race, even if doing so helped one fulfill a desired agenda that makes one happy. Also, right and wrong take us into the area of motives in a way that does not apply to animals. In any case, the A & E myth is about becoming "godlike' in the process of learning to distinguish good from evil and that connection is far removed from the realm of instinctive animal patterns of conduct, which are in any case the furthest thing from the mind of the Yahwist author who composed this myth. Bette's inference is as absurd as speculation about how the characters of Jesus' parables will behave in the next few days.
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When you use "godlike", what do you mean? The story of Adam and Eve describes the transition from hunter gatherers to agriculturists. Cain and Able describe the conflict between farmers and herders in which the herders lost. The stories depict a transition from living in harmony with creation to violent exploiters of creation and a transition from living in close relationship with God to estrangement where the Seraphim at the gate is pride and greed.
 
jimkenney12 said:
When you use "godlike", what do you mean? The story of Adam and Eve describes the transition from hunter gatherers to agriculturists. Cain and Able describe the conflict between farmers and herders in which the herders lost. The stories depict a transition from living in harmony with creation to violent exploiters of creation and a transition from living in close relationship with God to estrangement where the Seraphim at the gate is pride and greed.
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So we should never have progressed beyond the hunter-gatherer stage because they were more in harmony with creation? That narrative romanticizes hunter-gatherers. Fact is, we have always exploited resources, even in the hunter-gatherer era. There is fairly good evidence that humans contributed to at least some Ice Age extinctions. And we weren't herders and farmers yet in the Ice Age.

If you want a source, here's a list of scholarly articles on the subject from Google Scholar.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.ca scholar.google.ca
 
In satyr or the theme of making an ass of themselves in satire ... are humans generally self-destructive?

Maybe just the inhumane side of what is exhibited as intelligent? Fabrications ...

More to ponder ...
 
We have always exploited natural resources. Hunter Gathers suceeded in making most mega fauna extinct. Their exploitation was done in a sense of being part of the environmnet, not above or apart from the environment. The relationship may not have been a kind one, but it was a sense of relationship. Indigenous peoples in the plains and mountains of Western Canada deliberately used fire to maintain an ecosystem that was favourable to them in providing food for the game they like to hunt.
 
jimkenney12 said:
We have always exploited natural resources. Hunter Gathers suceeded in making most mega fauna extinct. Their exploitation was done in a sense of being part of the environmnet, not above or apart from the environment. The relationship may not have been a kind one, but it was a sense of relationship. Indigenous peoples in the plains and mountains of Western Canada deliberately used fire to maintain an ecosystem that was favourable to them in providing food for the game they like to hunt.
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Is there a sense of balance somewhere between overcultivated and extremely destructive ... so as to avoid the naivete factor and enter the means as described in some form of pragmatic philosophy that is good for the greater integral ... all of creation?

This will sound somewhat fishy to those determined to be winners ... and not contemplate being on the alternate side ...

May resemble the conflict between open and closed singularities ... sols? There are addition words for this concept ... albeit giving rise to complexity ...

Complexity of linguistics allows us to hide intellect from those that would rather not be cognizant of further domains! Excessive degrees of magnitude ... Magus?
 
I find the story interesting in many ways....for instance how would Adam and Eve know that a snake would bring evil upon them if they weren't aware of evil?
Why would God say that Adam and Eve have become like us now that they know good and evil? And who is "us"....isnt God one?
If God placed an evil snake in the garden then Eden wasn't as perfect as we like to believe was it? Or perhaps this isn't the God we should follow?
There is another story of the snake as a liberator in a gnostic book called The Testimony of Truth.
In it the snake liberates Adam and Eve from a dictatorial God by encouraging them to eat the fruit that God has said not to, which will give them more wisdom. The snake is seen as a heralder of enlightenment and truth that helps them escape the garden.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus discusses his destiny with Nicodemus, and makes a comparison of the rising up of the son of man and the act of Moses raising up the serpant, for the healing of the people.
Jesus was foreshadowing his own act of salvation.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up"
 
In most religions and historically, other than Christianity, the snake represents fertility and rebirth. And spiritually, because they shed their skins they also represent rebirth, immortality, transformation and healing.
 
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God does nothing without a Spiritual meaning -----in this 2min and a half min video the Hebrew meaning of the name Adam has much importance ----

Adam" in ancient Hebrew!​



Here is a 1min and 30 second video

​

Eden" in ancient Hebrew!​


 
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