Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Pinga]

The potential is that a car can be run at 100km / hour in a 20km hour zone. We have rules & laws to protect individuals and put common sense in.

The potential is also.....that people will kill themselves earlier than they need to, because they can't count on a doctor or anyone conforming to their request when they no longer can.
The potential is also...that people will kill themselves, rather than go to a doctor and ask for assistance, and thereby get treatements that help their condition and maybe stop a suicide.

People commit suicide. It is a fact.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

What about people with ALS (what Rodriguez had) who want to live? Could it lead to the state determining that they are not worth the supports that might be required?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The majority of what? What are you quoting?

Was replying to justme who quoted a CCPD article and I took part of the quote in reply but forgot to hit "reply". Sorry.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The potential is that a car can be run at 100km / hour in a 20km hour zone. We have rules & laws to protect individuals and put common sense in.

The potential is also.....that people will kill themselves earlier than they need to, because they can't count on a doctor or anyone conforming to their request when they no longer can.
The potential is also...that people will kill themselves, rather than go to a doctor and ask for assistance, and thereby get treatements that help their condition and maybe stop a suicide.

People commit suicide. It is a fact.

I agree with getting help to heal, to feel better, but at what point does the doctor agree with the patient and say "Youz're right, your life is not worth living"? That's a scary prospect.

 

[GeoFee]

A phrase comes forward to be heard but I cannot quite connect its constituent parts. Something indicating the banality of evil.

My response?

Were we a nation notorious for rigorous ethical practice on the part of governments and corporations, as with citizens throughout the land, there would be no risk in permitting persons to make decisions concerning the experience of life and death. Sadly, we are not such a nation. Evidence to support this ethical failure is available in all directions.
​

George

 

[ChemGal]

What about people with ALS (what Rodriguez had) who want to live? Could it lead to the state determining that they are not worth the supports that might be required?

No. The argument is the equivalent of people complaining about gay marriage, because they don't want to be forced into a marriage with someone who is the same sex as them.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

No. The argument is the equivalent of people complaining about gay marriage, because they don't want to be forced into a marriage with someone who is the same sex as them.

No. (what George said applies)

 

[Pinga]

I agree with getting help to heal, to feel better, but at what point does the doctor agree with the patient and say "Youz're right, your life is not worth living"? That's a scary prospect.

I have the right to die, Kimmio.
That is my choice.

I have the right to declare a DNR as Seeler has indicated.

I also have the right to kill myself, it quit being criminal a long time ago.
I can do it with a doctor's aid, or without.
If I go to a doctor, then I may find alternatives, or the doctor may recognize that due to the circumstances of my life (such as ALS, cancer or other debilitating disease), that I am fully aware and cognizant.

If the doctor disagrees with me, I still have the right to die.
I just do it without the doctor's assistance.

 

[GeoFee]

Cynically?

We have prison industries as a solution to problems rooted in poverty and mental illness. What economic stimulus will follow the licensed practice of death as remedy for personal suffering? Organ harvesting to benefit the persons of worth among us?

Biting my tongue... while nihilists chuckle into piously folded hands.

George

Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ.ɨlɪzəm/ or /ˈniː.ɨlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical doctrine that suggests the negation of one or more reputedly meaningful aspects of life. The Greek philosopher and Sophist, Gorgias (ca. 485 BCE–380 BCE), is perhaps the first to consider the Nihilistic belief. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological or ontological/metaphysical forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or that reality does not actually exist.
The term is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence that one may develop upon realising there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws.[2] Movements such as Futurism and deconstruction,[3] among others, have been identified by commentators as "nihilistic" at various times in various contexts.
Nihilism is also a characteristic that has been ascribed to time periods: for example, Jean Baudrillard and others have called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch,[4] and some Christian theologians and figures of religious authority have asserted that postmodernity[5] and many aspects of modernity[3] represent a rejection of theism, and that such rejection of their theistic doctrine entails nihilism.​

 

[ChemGal]

No. (what George said applies)

What in this ruling suggests that it is the state determining that people aren't worth the supports?
It's about a PATIENT'S choice, and their doctor being able to go along with that.

 

[Jaebius]

Seriously? Do you think this is an 'open season on people' kind of bill, one that'll be abused?

The intent is clearly not people-hunting season. Nevertheless I remain interested in how Seeler can be assured that anyone at any time who seeks assisted suicide will have thought long and hard about it.

 

[Seeler]

What makes you certain it will only be people who have "thought long and hard about it"?

Because from what I have heard about the criteria this will require some time between the individual making some inquiries, locating a doctor willing to examine the issues, making sure they meet the criteria, and finalizing the arrangements. I doubt very much that it will be a snap decision.

 

[GeoFee]

Personally...?

This week I drove into Winnipeg with Mum and Dad. This to hear medical diagnosis of doctor. It is cancer. Dad's basic response? The vial of insulin and the syringe he uses to manage his Diabetes. Will he follow through? His choice! It will be a relief for Mum, whom he has misused for the duration of their marriage. I will stand with her as she embrace Dad's decision, either way. So will my married partner and my siblings.

George

 

[Jaebius]

Because from what I have heard about the criteria this will require some time between the individual making some inquiries, locating a doctor willing to examine the issues, making sure they meet the criteria, and finalizing the arrangements. I doubt very much that it will be a snap decision.

That's an apt description of the lengthy procedure - but no guarantee as to depth of thought.

 

[Carolla]

The intent is clearly not people-hunting season. Nevertheless I remain interested in how Seeler can be assured that anyone at any time who seeks assisted suicide will have thought long and hard about it.

Presently, if someone requests to be removed from life support - the medical community does not take immediate action. There is a long and thoughtful process to determine with as much clarity as possible whether this is a persistent informed wish, and consistent with the previously known values of the individual. It is NOT something the medical community takes lightly, nor does easily. I would imagine similar checks and balances of process will be part of forthcoming discussion relative to development of laws as directed by the court today.

I do find it offensive that some are implying that docs are just out there waiting for the go-ahead signal to start killing people. Docs find this situation difficult too ... that's one to give to some thought to.

 

[Justme]

Or that bureaucrats or politicians are counting pennies so closely they'll be offing people who are "too expensive" for the system.

 

[Pinga]

carolla, there was an excellent interview on CBC today of a palliative care doctor. I didn't catch his name, but, he spoke to the challenge, but also the reality

 

[ChemGal]

My concern with possible outcomes with this (besides it not actually going ahead) is that people who really want this, won't be able to access it.
I think there's a greater likelihood of things being too strict than the policies being too lax.

 

[Justme]

This seems to be what is happening with medical marijuana - at least here in Ottawa there are few doctors who will prescribe and now you can't grow your own so it's cost prohibitive because it's not a covered medication by most (all?) drug plans.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

What in this ruling suggests that it is the state determining that people aren't worth the supports?
It's about a PATIENT'S choice, and their doctor being able to go along with that.

Too risky that the opposite could happen whereby precidents are set in the books determining whose life is valuable (or not based on medical model of impairment) and what supports the state is willing to help them to live with if they want to.