Revisiting Mark

[Mendalla]

Could it not also be that Jesus is the strong man and Satan cannot bind him and defeat him? Satan has no power in the world because the world belongs to God and Satan cannot bind God?

The problem I see with the opposing position outlined by @unsafe, though I do actually get it and agree it is a valid interpretation, is that it then suggests that the world is Satan's home and Satan has to be bound for God to "plunder" it. I do not think that is the case. The world is God's, per Genesis 1, Satan is an intruder and is the one plundering.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla ----you say ----- The world is God's, per Genesis 1, Satan is an intruder and is the one plundering.


I say -----this is my view on this --------In the beginning God Created the world and gave Humans control over this world ------Satan became the god of this world by God making him so when He kicked Satan out of Heaven -----Satan took the keys from God when he deceived Eve and Eve influenced The First Christ to disobey God's command ---Jesus -- the second Adam took the keys back when He defeated Satan on the Cross -----

2 Corinthians 4:4 (NLT)
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

 

[paradox3]

Both interpretations seem completely reasonable to me.

Sometimes parables work this way.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla -----I think it needs to be understood that when God created Adam and Eve ----the Garden was Holy ------God was the God of this His world

When they fell ---the Garden became tainted and God had to hand it over as God cannot be involved in anything that is deemed unholy -----just an after thought ----

 

[paradox3]

Mark 3:27 New English Translation (NET Bible)
27 But no one is able to enter a strong man’s house and steal his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can thoroughly plunder his house.

The problem I am having with this little parable is that the binder and the plunderer are the same person.

@unsafe is suggesting the strongman is Satan. This makes Jesus both the binder and the plunderer. Jesus as the binder of Satan sits fine with me but I am having a hard time casting Jesus into the role of plunderer.

@Mendalla suggests the strongman is Jesus and Satan is powerless against him. This makes more logical sense to me but it is not, in fact, what the parable says. The strongman gets tied up and his house plundered.

I can easily buy Satan as the plunderer but not the binder.

Why am I reminded of one hand clapping in the forest? Someone might be deceiving someone else in this parable but my head is already spinning!

 

[paradox3]

Fortunately the parables we will encounter tomorrow in chapter 4 are not as mind bending.

 

[paradox3]

Sometimes it helps to go to the interpretation in The Message. Here it is:

Do you think it's possible in broad daylight to enter the house of an awake, able-bodied man, and walk off with his possessions unless you tie him up first?

Now we have an able-bodied man and a thief tying him up.

Does this bring you any more clarity? Can't say it's assisting me much.
Maybe I am just being too literal.

 

[Mendalla]

As I said, sometimes "masters" couch their wisdom in language geared to being understood only by those "in the know". Or maybe there's some context missing here. It seems straightforward on one level: Even the strongest man can be overcome if bound. But it is hard to see how he is applying it here. Who is the strong man and who is the thief?

 

[unsafe]

My view here

Put it this way ====Jesus came to Satan's domain --this world -----So Jesus is entering Satan's house ---So Jesus is the plunder here ---but in order to plunder the strong man's house-- Jesus has to bind Satan up first----cause the strong man will resist the plunder to keep his possessions ------

Now to understand what is being said here you need to go back and read what was said before this ----

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

Now Jesus is not in the same league as Satan ------which the lawmakers are accusing Him of ------but had come to plunder Satan's house --this world ---to do what was essential to bind Satan and plunder his goods -----

So the question is what are Satan's goods that Jesus came to get ------for me it would be the souls of humankind that Satan took when he deceived Eve and she influenced the first Christ to disobey God's Command in the Garden which not only affected all humans but affected the whole earth ------all fell and Satan had his earthly human domain ---

Jesus came to Preach the Good News of Salvation which Satan took -----

 

[paradox3]

Thanks for your very comprehensive post @unsafe.

At first I didn't understand why you were talking about the Garden of Eden but I see it now. If the world has become Satan's realm, your interpretation of the parable makes complete sense.

I still say there are other possible interpretations but your explanation is more coherent than anything I have been able to come up with today.

 

[paradox3]

Mark 4

Jesus continues to teach in parables, now about God's word and God's kingdom. These lessons are familiar and they are easier to understand than "the strongman & the binder/ plunderer" from Mark 3:

• the parable of the sower
• the parable of the lamp
• the parable of the growing seed
• the parable of the mustard seed

Jesus discusses the use and purpose of parables. To the disciples, he will explain all things; to others, he will speak in parables.

As evening falls, Jesus and the twelve go out onto the lake. Jesus falls asleep on a cushion in the stern of the boat and a windstorm develops. Waves come into the boat and the disciples fear for their lives. They waken Jesus who calms the waters and rebukes them for their lake of faith. They are terrified and wonder, " Who then is this? Even the wind and the sea obey him."

For reflection:

When he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. He said to them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those outside, everything is in parables. (Mark 4: 10-11 NET)

 

[paradox3]

When he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. He said to them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those outside, everything is in parables.

On my first few reads through this chapter, I assumed these two verses were about the twelve disciples. But now it seems not. "Those around him with the twelve" doesn't seem to equal the twelve.

So who were they? They are a group with secret knowledge. They are insiders. Perhaps this group includes women and others who followed Jesus closely. Perhaps it includes a subset of the disciples. The twelve often seem to function as a council with an executive committee (Peter, James and John) so maybe these three are part of the inner circle.

As a group, the twelve need to have things explained to them. They are presented here as fearful and uncertain. (v.41)

I don't think they can be the ones who have been given the secret of the kingdom of God. (v.11)

 

[paradox3]

We have always known that Jesus chose twelve disciples. They were chosen for a hard task, yet they were chosen all the same. But we really like to view Him as a radically inclusive exemplar. This seems to be true when it comes to his healing & teaching ministry.

It doesn't seem to be so when it comes to his role as "guru" or mystic. There are those inside and those outside. It almost seems like Jesus had concentric circles of people around him.

Does this have any relevance today?

Consider the very puzzling story in Luke's gospel about Mary and Martha. Here we see Martha serving and Mary listening at His feet. Could these two women parallel the disciples (Martha) and those who have the secret of the kingdom of God (Mary)?

I have always been attracted to this story in Luke but have found it confusing. Maddening, even, to my feminist principles.

 

[Mendalla]

It does seem that the "inner circle" went beyond the twelve but there's no indication of how big it was. Maybe it was as simple as the "true believers" vs. those who just came for the spectacle of him preaching and healing. Agree, though, that this is another sign of the movement having characteristics of a mystery faith or cult.

It is interesting, though, that the movement seems to have opened up by the time Mark is writing this else he would not have been putting the special "inner circle" teachings in writing this openly. Did spreading beyond the Jewish world, as happened in Paul and Peter's ministry, open things up? Was simply having faith in Jesus enough to make one "inner circle" now?

Then you have the formalization of the church as a hierarchical structure and the whole inner circle aspect seems to come back with the cardinals and their conclaves.

And then Protestantism opened things up again.

 

[Mendalla]

You could also look at it in terms of the sower. Jesus knows that the "inner circle" are the fertile ground where the seed will grow. Just as a farmer might prefer the better parts of his land when sowing, using those parts that are rocky or less fertile for other things (grazing sheep or whatever). They can then take the seed and sow it further, keeping the sowing going after his passing.

 

[paradox3]

Agree, though, that this is another sign of the movement having characteristics of a mystery faith or cult.

It is looking that way. Jesus as the leader of the movement seems to possess some of the arrogance typical of such leaders.

This time reading through the gospels, I am also struck by the vulnerability of Jesus. He gets worn out by the crowds, is growing fearful, gets frustrated with the disciples, falls asleep in the boat, and so on.

All part of His human nature I suppose.

 

[Mendalla]

This time reading through the gospels, I am also struck by the vulnerability of Jesus. He gets worn out by the crowds, is growing fearful, gets frustrated with the disciples, falls asleep in the boat, and so on.

All part of His human nature I suppose.

The tension between Jesus the Divine, casting out spirits, healing bodies, and dispensing wisdom, and Jesus the Man, vulnerable and emotional, comes out really well at times in these accounts. It is interesting that modern accounts always seem to lean into the human side (JC Superstar comes to mind since I was watching clips from the arena tour featuring Melanie C and Tim Minchin) and often treat the divine element as something alien.

 

[Lastpointe]

When he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. He said to them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those outside, everything is in parables.

On my first few reads through this chapter, I assumed these two verses were about the twelve disciples. But now it seems not. "Those around him with the twelve" doesn't seem to equal the twelve.

So who were they? They are a group with secret knowledge. They are insiders. Perhaps this group includes women and others who followed Jesus closely. Perhaps it includes a subset of the disciples. The twelve often seem to function as a council with an executive committee (Peter, James and John) so maybe these three are part of the inner circle.

As a group, the twelve need to have things explained to them. They are presented here as fearful and uncertain. (v.41)

I don't think they can be the ones who have been given the secret of the kingdom of God. (v.11)

“those around him with the twelve “ though could refer to the masses. He speaks and teaches to large crowds. Who would be with the twelve

 

[unsafe]

Reflection scripture for today ------When he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. He said to them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those outside, everything is in parables.

I say --My View ----So for me this from the scripture ------those around him with the twelve -----indicates other disciples who were with the chosen 12 ----as they were privileged to be given the secrets of the Kingdom of God ------The parables were designed to cause confusion amongst the unbelieving ---

paradox3 -----you said ----As a group, the twelve need to have things explained to them----I don't think they can be the ones who have been given the secret of the kingdom of God. (v.11)

I say ---Just my view ------Yes they did need to have the parable explained to them -----for me this shows the Disciples who follow Jesus didn't always get the Spiritual meaning that is intended right away --The secrets of the Kingdom will always come through the Spiritual realm ----and that takes time to acquire such knowledge and wisdom --So Jesus explains the parable to the Disciples so they can gain that knowledge and wisdom that is needed to be understanding of the secrets of the Kingdom -----

 

[paradox3]

“those around him with the twelve “ though could refer to the masses. He speaks and teaches to large crowds. Who would be with the twelve

"Those around him with the twelve" seem to have access to secret knowledge and therefore no need of the parables. Or at least this is my reading of the text. I don't think this can mean the multitudes; somehow it is a select group and I don't even think it includes all of the twelve. Seems unlikely to me when the disciples struggle so much. That same evening they are rebuked by Jesus for their fear and lack of faith.

Who would be with the twelve? Maybe some women, I am thinking. And others who are pursuing Jesus more for his wisdom & teaching than for his healing powers.