Revisiting Mark

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@unsafe I am starting to favor the term "disciple" I think. It is probably more nuanced. And maybe it implies more commitment and sincerity than "follower"?

Language usage changes over time, we need to keep that in mind.
Great discussion sparked today by Mark 4!
 
I don't know how many of you are familiar with The Discipleship Project :an initiative of the Presbyterian Church of Canada. The "project" as your congregation chooses to adapt it, doesn't really matter where you are on the theological spectrum, just that adult education matters, and that there are many paths/ways to offer this education.
 
Mark 5

A man with an unclean spirit emerges from the tombs and meets Jesus. He bows down before Jesus and cries out, "Leave me alone, Jesus, Son of the Most High God!" Jesus had asked the unclean spirit to leave the man.

Jesus learns the man's name is Legion, for the spirits are many. The spirits beg Jesus not to send them out of the region. On the hillside, a large herd of pigs is feeding and the spirits request to enter the pigs. Jesus grants permission and the herd of 2000 pigs rushes down the hill and drowns in the sea.

The herdsmen of the pigs tell others what has happened and they want Jesus to depart from their region. The healed man asks to come with Jesus but He tells the man to go home to his people. Jesus wants the man to tell them what the Lord has done for him.

Jesus crosses in a boat to the other side.

A woman in the crowd (who has been bleeding for 12 years) is healed by touching Jesus' clothes. He feels the power leave him at this moment and asks who touched him. The woman is fearful but identifies herself to Jesus. ""Daughter, your faith has made you well," he responds. "Go in peace and be healed of your disease."

Jesus heals the 12 year old daughter of Jairus, a leader in the synagogue. Her family says she has just died, but Jesus says she is only sleeping. He takes her by the hand and says, "Little girl, get up." Jesus instructs the family to tell no one what has taken place.

For reflection:

When Jesus had crossed again in a boat to the other side, a large crowd gathered around him, and he was by the sea. (Mark 5: 21 NET)
 
When Jesus had crossed again in a boat to the other side, a large crowd gathered around him, and he was by the sea.

Why is this verse speaking to me this morning? I am not sure yet.

Is it the theme of the natural world appearing again? Is it the human Jesus crossing the sea in a boat? Is it the simplicity of the verse?

There are many curious aspects to Mark 5 and I might be back later to post again on something else. Please feel free to comment on any part of the story which interests you. I
 
It's so interesting that the three healing stories in Mark 5 are completely different types of stories.

Legion's story almost seems like an exaggeration of the power of demons. Dramatically, the strong man who can break through chains and shackles is powerless against them. He is clearly tormented, roaming the countryside crying out and cutting himself with stones. There are many demons, giving him the name Legion. These demons recognize Jesus immediately as the Son of the Most High God.

Rather than casting them out, Jesus gives them permission to leave the man. There are enough of them to possess 2000 pigs. Possibly they only possess some of the swine and the rest of the pigs follow them down the hillside into the sea.

There is no mention of demons in the other two stories.

The woman who touches the cloak worn by Jesus is healed by her faith alone. Jesus doesn't do anything active to heal her and he actually feels the "power go out of him" when she touches him.

The story of the 12 year old girl is so ambiguous it might not even be a healing story. She is supposed by her family to be dead but Jesus tells them she is only sleeping. He takes her by the hand and tells her to rise. Jesus then asks them to give her something to eat.
 
Also to note:

The number 12 is mentioned twice.

The man Legion is instructed to tell his story to others but the family of the 12 year old girl is asked to keep quiet.
The woman who touched His cloak is told to "Go in peace" but there is no mention of whether or not she should talk about her experience.
 
Do we know anything about the Gadarenes or Gerasenes? Were they Jewish, pagans or gentiles? Does it make a difference why Jesus chose to put the demons in pigs depending on the Gerasenes nationality?
Why would a demon (which is some sort of unclean spirit) drown? Do they need to breathe?
 
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Waterfall said:
Do we know anything about the Gadarenes or Gerasenes? Were they Jewish, pagans or gentiles? Does it make a difference why Jesus chose to put the demons in pigs depending on the Gerasenes nationality?
Why would a demon (which is some sort of unclean spirit) drown? Do they need to breathe?
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Jesus had said "Come out of that man, you unclean spirit." (v.8) But it was the demons who requested to enter the pigs. Jesus merely gave his permission. I am not sure how important this distinction might be, but it is interesting to note. The demons seem to have a fair amount of self-determination in this story.

The pigs drowned and I had always assumed the demons perished as well. But the last time we discussed this story (or one of its parallels), there was speculation that the demons had cleverly set themselves free.

It seems reasonable to assume the Gadarenes were either pagans or gentiles if they were raising herds of ritually unclean animals. But I have also come across a suggestion that they might have been non-observant Jews.
 
Waterfall ----on this This word Gerasenes. in Mark 5:1 ---I found this -----

Gerasenes.
Γερασηνῶν (Gerasēnōn)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's Greek 1086: From Gerasene. Of Hebrew origin; a Gergesene or one of the aborigines of Palestine.

Waterfall --you ask -----Why would a demon (which is some sort of unclean spirit) drown? Do they need to breathe?

I say ----You ask a great question here -----Demons are Spiritual Beings ---so they do not Die they would not drown ----they wanted to go into to pigs so they could come out of the pigs and find other humans to invade ------demons can leave and possess their host as they want -----

I say ----This is what the demons say to Jesus -----they wanted to stay in that area ---maybe people were easy targets for them in that area ??????

Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.”

My view
I say ---demons are very smart beings -----they went with Satan when he was not allowed to be in God's Heavenly realm anymore ----- but as the scriptures say they are very frightened of Jesus and know that He can send them out of where they are at -----Jesus is still alive here so Satan has not been defeated yet -----so demons have the rule over this planet until Jesus dies on the cross and takes the keys back to this planet from Satan who took the keys in the Garden when Eve and especially Adam the first Christ fell from God's grace ------So Jesus does what they ask because Jesus hadn't come to the point to complete His mission yet ---which was to defeat Satan from having full reign on this earth ----People will have a choice to keep Satan and his demons away from themselves after Jesus has completed His Mission ----
 
There's a whole wiki article on the issue of who the Gadarenes/Gerasenes were. Both places exist but neither is on the Sea of Galilee as this seems to imply. Gergesa (now known as Kursi), however, is close enough so there may be some textual issues here. I have not read anything that suggests why the Gegesenes were raising pigs, but the Jews were not the only people in the region, so presumably the swineherds were Gentile pagans of some form.

Waterfall said:
Why would a demon (which is some sort of unclean spirit) drown? Do they need to breathe?
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Who says the demons drowned? The pigs did. In the NRSV, the passage is translated as, "And the unclean spirits came out and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea." That makes the herd the antecedent for "drowned in the sea", not the unclean spirits. The unclean spirits probably were then released to go back to the spirit world or something.

I wonder if any filmmaker has attempted this scene in a movie about Jesus. It would make a hell of a sequence with modern FX.
 
Thomas Aquinas suggested that Jesus did this to demonstrate he is more interested in souls than bodies or property, but I'm not sure that sits well when many Jews believe that a soul cannot continue to live without a body (thus the belief that a resurrection has to include a body) and perhaps this is the same with an unclean spirit that some kind of a body is required.
It's a curious story.
Interesting that a Roman Legion is anywhere from 3,000 to 6,000 men......could it be this land was occupied by the Romans?
 
@Waterfall, @unsafe, @Mendalla, What is your reaction to the other two stories of healing in Mark 5?

These stories are much less dramatic than the one about the demon-possessed pigs but they raise some questions of their own.
 
Waterfall said:
Thomas Aquinas suggested that Jesus did this to demonstrate he is more interested in souls than bodies or property, but I'm not sure that sits well when many Jews believe that a soul cannot continue to live without a body (thus the belief that a resurrection has to include a body) and perhaps this is the same with an unclean spirit that some kind of a body is required.
It's a curious story.
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Pigs were unclean to Jews (and Muslims), so it makes sense that's where unclean spirits would go. It still seems really over the top, though. A stampede of possessed pigs sounds like something out of a grade B horror film.

Waterfall said:
Interesting that a Roman Legion is anywhere from 3,000 to 6,000 men......could it be this land was occupied by the Romans?
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I think I saw that mentioned somewhere and it would make sense. The Romans certainly ate pork and you'd need a herd of that size if you were supplying a legion. And it ties nicely with how the spirits describe themselves as "legion".

Factoid: William Peter Blatty titled the novel sequel to the Exorcist Legion, inspired by this story. Alas, they didn't use it as the first film sequel (which Blatty hated), so it ended up as The Exorcist III when finally filmed. Blatty wrote and directed the film, though, so he was at least cool with it unlike The Exorcist II.
 
paradox3 said:
@Waterfall, @unsafe, @Mendalla, What is your reaction to the other two stories of healing in Mark 5?

These stories are much less dramatic than the one about the demon-possessed pigs but they raise some questions of their own.
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The woman touching his hem one is really my favorite of the bunch, because Jesus is passive in this one. The fact that Jesus only knows she is there when he feels his power go out puts an interesting spin on it. Just touching him out of faith that doing so would heal her seems to be enough. So is it Jesus' power that heals or the faith of the healed person? There are other cases where Jesus says things like "your faith has made you whole" or, in the incident of the paralytic earlier in Mark, the faith of those who helped him get to Jesus. So does Jesus' power to heal require faith on the part of the recipient? There's a lot to unpack just in that story.
 
Mendalla said:
So is it Jesus' power that heals or the faith of the healed person? There are other cases where Jesus says things like "your faith has made you whole"
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It appears to be the faith of the healed person.

I wonder if the story of the woman healed by touching the garment is offered as a counterbalance to Legion's story.

Both faith and the demons possess power in their own right. Although the involvement of Jesus is significant, he is just a conduit or facilitator.

The two stories are not exactly mirror images. But what if faith is viewed as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Or is this too big a stretch?
 
Mendalla -----you said ---So is it Jesus' power that heals or the faith of the healed person?


I say -----we are all born with intellectual faith ---but will that faith heal us from a disease or illness on it's own ------

Question ----If Faith can heal us by itself why would we need to go to a doctor ?-------


my view
I say for me ---The woman had great faith in her physician who she knew by her Faith in Him could heal her and all she had to do was touch His Cloak ------Jesus Being omnipotent ---He is all powerful and her Faith in His ability was what healed her ---Jesus was turned away from her and He felt the power go out of Him -----He turned and acknowledged her Faith and he accepted her Faith and she was healed ----- Jesus knows our hearts --mind and motives and if we have the right Kind of Faith to be Healed through Him -----
 
It's interesting that the evil spirits identify themselves as Legion, a military term. IOW a bunch of Roman soldiers. In the reference notes in the Bible I use, the comparison is made between the swine herd rushing into the sea and drowning to Pharaoh's chariots chasing into the Sea of Reeds, and drowning. Is there a hint here that military might does NOT necessarily make right?
 
It is the man or the spirits or both who are named Legion?

Or could it be that the spirits have taken over the man? Or that the spirits are speaking through the man?

Mark 5:9-10 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10 He begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country.
 
I think the plural answers your question. People don't refer to themselves in both singular and plural in the same sentence. Even the old-fashioned royal "we" is generally used consistently. It's the demons speaking through him.
 
paradox3 said:
It is the man or the spirits or both who are named Legion?

Or could it be that the spirits have taken over the man? Or that the spirits are speaking through the man?

Mark 5:9-10 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10 He begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country.
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It's my understanding that it's part of performing an exorcism.....to ask the name of the demon possessing someone.
 
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