Revisiting Mark

[Mendalla]

The whole bit with the family is interesting, esp. since Mark lacks a birth narrative or really any reference to Jesus having a family until Mark 3:31.

31 Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers and sisters[c] are outside, asking for you.” 33 And he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

The rejection of the immediate family in favour of a broader definition of family again seems to fit with this being a mystery religion type of group he is building. Family ties are tight bonds that can get in the way of building a relationship with God or the group.

However, it also opens things up to a broader understanding of family, to seeing all who follow Jesus' way or work for God's way as an extended family. It invites us to embrace each other as more than just another organization, but as siblings or a parent-child relationship where appropriate. Perhaps a communal vision where we take responsibility for helping each other.

Andrew Vachss, an American crime writer of whom I used to be fond (he gets preachy about his pet causes so I kind of burned out on him), put forward the idea that the family we choose is more important than the family we are related to by blood. It makes sense because his key theme (the cause he gets preachy about) is child abuse and most of characters have left their families or been "thrown away", so they come together as a kind of surrogate family. That then wages a bloody, nasty war on abusers, but that's another story.

So is the body of Christ, the Church, whatever we call it, our chosen family that transcends or even replaces our blood family?

 

[Mendalla]

I say -----So Jesus had the authority to forgive sins and this illness needed to have the forgiveness of sins to be healed---The 4 men had the strong faith to get the man to Jesus and Jesus saw that Faith and knew they were wanting this man healed in their hearts ------

So does his faith, which isn't really mentioned, matter at all or was his friends' faith enough? IOW, are we getting into the idea that someone of strong faith can intervene for others, as we often see in lives of the saints and similar legends?

e.g. In Wagner's Tannhauser, based on a medieval German legend, Tannauser's lover Elizabeth is able to save him by her faith (in both Tannhauser and God) after he sins by sojourning in the hedonistic world of the pagan goddess Venus. Not sure if this is Wagner's invention or part of the original legend, but it was certainly in keeping with the kinds of stories you hear in those legends.

 

[paradox3]

Hope it is OK for posting on Yesterdays statement

No problem.

Thanks for making the point that Jesus saw what was in the hearts of the four men. This adds another layer to the story for me. I imagine Jesus saw not only faith but also determination and love for their friend.

 

[paradox3]

Some interesting points, @Mendalla about Christianity as a mystery religion.

There are a few places in the gospels where Jesus explains things differently or in more depth to his disciples.

 

[Mendalla]

Some interesting points, @Mendalla about Christianity as a mystery religion.

There are a few places in the gospels where Jesus explains things differently or in more depth to his disciples.

Sorry if I kind spammed the thread. Just had so many ideas dancing around that I didn't want to squeeze it all into one post. And then I read unsafe's and wanted to reply to her, too.

 

[paradox3]

I wonder if today's text is where Christians got the idea of calling each other brothers and sisters. We don't do this so much any more in my congregation but I almost feel like we are wearing out the "church family" metaphor.

Now Jesus went up the mountain and called for those he wanted, and they came to him.

We certainly still talk about "calls" but they are usually from God and usually in the context of ordered ministry.

 

[paradox3]

Sorry if I kind spammed the thread. Just had so many ideas dancing around that I didn't want to squeeze it all into one post. And then I read unsafe's and wanted to reply to her, too.

No worries! I am thrilled we are finding so much to talk about in Mark's gospel.

 

[paradox3]

@Mendalla I am also intrigued with the concept that the Holy Spirit and the unclean spirits come from the same realm.

Will take another look at the parables in this chapter through this lens.

 

[unsafe]

Now Jesus went up the mountain and called for those he wanted, and they came to him.

paradox3 your Question -----Is this still true today? Does Jesus still call? Who does Jesus want in our time?

I say --This is my view ---Jesus does still call but many refuse the call or think they have accepted the call ------Many Ministers say they are called but again in my view many only think they were called -----Why do I say that ---cause they make up their on Doctrine and preach that instead of the word ----just my opinion here ---

So to answer the question ---yes I believe Jesus still calls ----and who Jesus wants are people who believe in Him by the right Faith and people who believe and preach His word not what they want to preach ------my view again here -

 

[Mendalla]

I am also intrigued with the concept that the Holy Spirit and the unclean spirits come from the same realm.

In the sense that they are all spirits of some form. Now, could the "clean" and "unclean" spirits have their own spaces in that realm (say Heaven and Hell)? Sure. But I tend to think a spirit is a spirit and that, as classical philosophers believed, like recognizes like.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla ----you ask ----So does his faith, which isn't really mentioned, matter at all or was his friends' faith enough? IOW, are we getting into the idea that someone of strong faith can intervene for others,

my view on this

I say ---you are right here the mans Faith is not mentioned --so we can only speculate that the 4 men talked to the man about Jesus or they may have taken the man to hear Jesus preach ----we don't know -----What we do know is that the 4 men definitely heard Jesus preach and by and through hearing the word and believing the word and seeing Jesus heal others their Faith became strong in Jesus ---as this type of Faith in Jesus only comes by hearing the Word of God according to scripture -------

Note here ----It is not Faith alone that heals us ---it is Faith in Jesus Christ who can heal us ------this is a big problem in main stream churches teaching that your Faith will heal you ---this causes big problems for people to understand ---as it says---- well I have Faith but I can't get healed ------Wrong teaching brings wrong results ------


I say -----There is intercessory prayer for healing---- which a person or persons with Faith in Jesus to heal a person can bring about change in that persons health ----in my view ---but God's knows our hearts and He alone knows the motive behind the person's intercessory prayer -----answered prayer just doesn't happen ----there are steps to follow to get answered prayer laid out in scripture -----

I say -----For instance there can be no doubting or unbelieving ---the 4 men never doubted or showed unbelief in what Jesus could do ---they pursued with great might and expectation that Jesus would and could heal this man -------

I say -----We today have to Believe that what Jesus did on the Cross is Done ----It is Finished ------What we have to do today is Receive by Faith in Jesus who is the Word that what He says in His word and what He did on the Cross for us --Will be Done -----


Matthew Henry in his commentary says this -------True faith and strong faith may work in various ways; but it shall be accepted and approved by Jesus Christ.


I say ---Jesus knows our hearts and motives when it comes to our Faith in Him ----he decides and approves if it is true or not -----not us ----

This is why the words we speak matter ------there is a connection with our heart and mouth ----what is in your heart you will speak out ------the heart here is not the heart that pumps our blood through our body ---it is our inner spiritual being -----


Example in scripture describing this ------
2 Corinthians 4:16
Verse Concepts
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

 

[paradox3]

Let's have a look at those parables Jesus taught to counter the accusation of the Pharisees:

Mark 3:22-26 New English Translation (NET Bible)
22 The experts in the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,”and, “By the ruler of demons he casts out demons!” 23 So he called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom will not be able to stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 And if Satan rises against himself and is divided, he is not able to stand and his end has come.

The accusation of the Pharisees seems absurd and Jesus seems to think so too. He answers plainly, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Why, I wonder, would Satan cast out lesser demons than himself?

Indeed, a house divided against itself is in big trouble.

Mark 3:27 New English Translation (NET Bible)
27 But no one is able to enter a strong man’s house and steal his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can thoroughly plunder his house.

Who do you think is represented by the strong man?

By way of explanation, Jesus says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. Is Jesus saying the ultimate offense is to take something good & holy and turn it into something evil? That the Pharisees do just that when they cannot distinguish between the Holy Spirit and Beezlebul?

 

[paradox3]

But I tend to think a spirit is a spirit and that, as classical philosophers believed, like recognizes like.

The simplest explanation, for sure!

 

[Mendalla]

How can Satan cast out Satan?

Why, I wonder, would Satan cast out lesser demons than himself?

Strictly speaking, if Satan can command lesser demons, he can definitely cast them out. So the question is why? Part of a bigger plan, perhaps. Have one of your underlings possess someone, then "cast them out" to help get people to believe in this person called Jesus that you are setting up as a false God (or false Son of God, I guess). So Satan isn't divided against himself, just making it look that way. That's how I would play it in a horror/fantasy novel, at least. And it may be what the scribes and Pharisees had in mind, too.

 

[paradox3]

Mind boggling @Mendalla !

Now Jesus went up the mountain and called for those he wanted, and they came to him.

Whatever shenanigans were going on with the Pharisees, it is not hard to imagine Jesus needing to surround himself with those he wanted. We can only speculate about the accusations made by the Pharisees but the text tells us straight up they were plotting His assassination.

 

[unsafe]

paradox3 said:
What exactly is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? What makes it unforgiveable?

paradox3 your statement here -----Is Jesus saying the ultimate offense is to take something good & holy and turn it into something evil?

I say Yes --- ---anyone who says the Holy Spirit is an impure spirit is guilty blaspheming the Holy Spirit -----it is OK for the teachers of the law to say or think Jesus is possessed by Beelzebul but He warns about calling the Holy Spirit impure ------

 

[Lastpointe]

I am always struck by the amount of natural world in the gospel stories. Sea sides. Lakes. And here we have calling from a mountain again

reminds me of Moses on the mountain.

 

[paradox3]

Back to the Holy Spirit.

In Mark 1, the Spirit descends on Jesus at his baptism. Immediately the voice of God comes from heaven naming Jesus as his beloved son. This certainly speaks to me of a triune God, although the gospel writer doesn't express this explicitly.

Why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit the worse offense? We can't really answer this although the Holy Spirit appears to be the means by which God does God's work. Descending on Jesus and driving out those unclean spirits, too.

All very intertwined.

 

[Mendalla]

I am always struck by the amount of natural world in the gospel stories. Sea sides. Lakes. And here we have calling from a mountain again

reminds me of Moses on the mountain.

Jesus in the wilderness, too, as mentioned in Mark 1:12-13 and fleshed out in Matthew 4. There does seem to be a strong association between God and nature in Hebrew/Jewish tradition. Most occasions of God speaking to prophets, patriarchs, and such seem to occur away from civilization. Being alone in a natural setting makes one more receptive to the divine voice? I remember meeting a couple of friends of my aunt who rented their building at the cottage (back before my aunt and uncle turned it into a small house) commenting something about "being in God's country". Is it natural to feel closer to God in nature than in a city/town or other "civilized" locale?

Personally, it works that way for me, even if I expressed it differently in my pantheist period. In pantheism, God is technically everywhere because God is literally everything, but I certainly still felt it more when I was up in the mountains or some other naturally appealing locale (at sea, in the deserts of Utah etc.). In a more traditionally theistic sense, God should also be accessible anywhere, anytime, but somehow I feel more inclined to recognize that presence in those sorts of spaces as well.

 

[unsafe]

Mark 3:27 New English Translation (NET Bible)
27 But no one is able to enter a strong man’s house and steal his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can thoroughly plunder his house.


paradox3 ----your question ----Who do you think is represented by the strong man?

I say ----it could means 2 things for me ------ Jesus is referring to Satan here and Satan's house is this world ------Jesus is stronger than the strong man and He will bind him up and triumph over his temptations in this world ------or it could be that Jesus bound the Strong man in the wilderness and triumphed over his temptations there ----

one thing I am sure of is that the strong man is Satan ----and the Binder is Jesus ------

I say ---for us today this says -----that anyone who has received Jesus in their hearts has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the authority to Bind the Strongman --Satan ---to keep him from playing Havoc in our household ------

How powerful is that ----