Strip Clubs

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chansen said:
If you regulate away strip clubs, there will be worse ways to exploit women, out of sight.
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That, to me, is a huge issue. As I said, I largely agree that sex work is exploitive and demeaning to women. But whether you talk about regulating strip clubs out of existence or criminalizing the purchase of sex - as the Harper government has done - I really don't believe you can eliminate the market. And driving the market underground and out of sight potentially creates even worse problems for the women who, for whatever reason, are in the sex trade.

chansen said:
My own limited experience with strip clubs is that they are patronized by 1/4 desperate men with no social skills, blowing their paycheques weekly, 1/4 overage frat boy types, 1/4 married business men who love to look at naked women, and 1/4 people who were dragged their by one of the above.
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You forgot about the few clergy I mentioned who stumble in by accident after meetings.
 
chansen said:
Well now we've opened up a new can of worms. Are shoe companies conspiring against women?

Look, there are market forces at work. Bette hit the nail on the head. If you regulate away strip clubs, there will be worse ways to exploit women, out of sight.

My own limited experience with strip clubs is that they are patronized by 1/4 desperate men with no social skills, blowing their paycheques weekly, 1/4 overage frat boy types, 1/4 married business men who love to look at naked women, and 1/4 people who were dragged their by one of the above.

The women range from beautiful, bubbly and expensive, to aging, desperate, and in decreasing demand. It's demeaning, no doubt. Strip clubs contain people who made bad choices. But not all. I think some have a healthy attitude toward it. I think some men are there for a simple transaction of wanting the attention and fake affection of a real woman, and that helps them get through the week until they can afford it again, or explain their absence to their spouse again. Some women are there to trade on their looks, and their ability to make men feel good. There is no typical body type in that line of work. They are mostly conventionally attractive on some level, with the occasional stunning woman, but it's a sales job. The girls are there to sell private dances, where they make their money. There are lots of sales positions staffed by far more attractive women than you'll find in the average strip club. Some wearing not much more clothing. It's all about selling.
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chansen said:
Well now we've opened up a new can of worms. Are shoe companies conspiring against women?

Look, there are market forces at work. Bette hit the nail on the head. If you regulate away strip clubs, there will be worse ways to exploit women, out of sight.

My own limited experience with strip clubs is that they are patronized by 1/4 desperate men with no social skills, blowing their paycheques weekly, 1/4 overage frat boy types, 1/4 married business men who love to look at naked women, and 1/4 people who were dragged their by one of the above.

The women range from beautiful, bubbly and expensive, to aging, desperate, and in decreasing demand. It's demeaning, no doubt. Strip clubs contain people who made bad choices. But not all. I think some have a healthy attitude toward it. I think some men are there for a simple transaction of wanting the attention and fake affection of a real woman, and that helps them get through the week until they can afford it again, or explain their absence to their spouse again. Some women are there to trade on their looks, and their ability to make men feel good. There is no typical body type in that line of work. They are mostly conventionally attractive on some level, with the occasional stunning woman, but it's a sales job. The girls are there to sell private dances, where they make their money. There are lots of sales positions staffed by far more attractive women than you'll find in the average strip club. Some wearing not much more clothing. It's all about selling.
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chansen said:
Look, that's just the truth as I see it. And it's a little depressing, but that's my limited experience, tagging along with colleagues.

I think they are mostly depressing places. Where some men only see naked women, I see the desperation. But I just don't think the solution is to shut them all down. There are lots of desperate people, and shutting the establishments down will not make them not desperate. It will make them more desperate.
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The same men who exploit and harass women at strip clubs will be exploiting and harassing them out of sight, off hours. I won't give 'anecdotes' again, but they will. They do. What needs to happen is to change attitudes about sex and sexuality so that these places aren't discriminatory hotspots in employment practices. And if the clubs die out because nobody bothers going anymore, it's up to us to create better vocational opportunities. And if they thrive and women are not made to feel demeaned there - then fine. And we still have the responsibility to create better options for women who don't have families who can or are willing provide them with everything they need to not make the choice to strip.
 
[/USER]
chansen said:
Well now we've opened up a new can of worms. Are shoe companies conspiring against women?

Look, there are market forces at work. Bette hit the nail on the head. If you regulate away strip clubs, there will be worse ways to exploit women, out of sight.

My own limited experience with strip clubs is that they are patronized by 1/4 desperate men with no social skills, blowing their paycheques weekly, 1/4 overage frat boy types, 1/4 married business men who love to look at naked women, and 1/4 people who were dragged their by one of the above.

The women range from beautiful, bubbly and expensive, to aging, desperate, and in decreasing demand. It's demeaning, no doubt. Strip clubs contain people who made bad choices. But not all. I think some have a healthy attitude toward it. I think some men are there for a simple transaction of wanting the attention and fake affection of a real woman, and that helps them get through the week until they can afford it again, or explain their absence to their spouse again. Some women are there to trade on their looks, and their ability to make men feel good. There is no typical body type in that line of work. They are mostly conventionally attractive on some level, with the occasional stunning woman, but it's a sales job. The girls are there to sell private dances, where they make their money. There are lots of sales positions staffed by far more attractive women than you'll find in the average strip club. Some wearing not much more clothing. It's all about selling.
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I've seen more aspects of that business than you have. There are mostly conventionally attractive and I am thinking we need to rethink 'conventional' - as a step towards doing away with the business altogether because it's no longer needed. But thanks for your anecdotal point of view anyway.
 
Kimmio said:
@ChemGal


I've seen more aspects of that business than you have. There are mostly conventionally attractive and I am thinking we need to rethink 'conventional'. But thanks for your anecdotal point of view anyway.
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That was my post, not Chemgal's, and that was your third response to it.

We all have anecdotes about this. The difference is, people who had a different experience than me do not threaten me nearly as much as different points of view threaten and offend you.
 
You know, if I have a great mind, no one seems to mind if I sell myself to a corporation to make great money.
Yet, if i had a great body, people would mind if I sold myself to a corporation to make great money

So, we seem to have some agreement that there is a basic requirement of birth (average or great body) plus skills to be an exotic dancer aka stripper.

Am i correct in that statement? General consensus is there are both birth (nature) and skills which make this a possible career choice.
 
Sorry @ChemGal I started writing a response to you earlier -didn't mean to tag you in my post to chansen.

I see that the Crippindales are male dancers - and for the most part I think mainstream women already have more generous definitions of what makes men sexy. Male attitudes are lagging behind the drive for change in this area.
 
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Pinga said:
You know, if I have a great mind, no one seems to mind if I sell myself to a corporation to make great money.
Yet, if i had a great body, people would mind if I sold myself to a corporation to make great money

So, we seem to have some agreement that there is a basic requirement of birth (average or great body) plus skills to be an exotic dancer aka stripper.

Am i correct in that statement? General consensus is there are both birth (nature) and skills which make this a possible career choice.
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What's a "great" body? A person in good health? A person who is a sexual being?Who says what's a great body? Did Twiggy have a great body? Does Oprah? If a person is missing their legs is the rest of their body still great?
 
chansen said:
That was my post, not Chemgal's, and that was your third response to it.

We all have anecdotes about this. The difference is, people who had a different experience than me do not threaten me nearly as much as different points of view threaten and offend you.
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They seem to because you're getting equally frustrated with me for making mine.
 
It takes only one example to refute 'always'. It takes more than one example to appropriately extrapolate information to a wider group.
 
Kimmio said:
Sorry @ChemGal I started writing a response to you earlier -didn't mean to tag you in my post to chansen.

I see that the Crippindales are male dancers - and for the most part I think mainstream women are already have more generous definitions of what makes men sexy. Male attitudes are lagging behind the drive for change in this area.
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I can't believe you're using "Crippendales" to show that women have a more inclusive definition of "sexy".

If you want to play that game, there are men who are turned on by furry animals. They've really expanded the definition of "sexy".

Take that, women.
 
Kimmio said:
What's a "great" body? A person in good health? A person who is a sexual being?Who says what's a great body? Did Twiggy have a great body? Does Oprah? If a person is missing their legs is the rest of their body still great?
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Clearly, it is the same judgement as what makes a great mind. Greatness is in the eye of the measurer. What is great for one situation may not be great for another.

Anyhow, can I presume you agree with the concept that there are nature & skills/training in the role of the exotic dancer, as there are in any other job
 
Kimmio said:
They seem to because you're getting equally frustrated with me for making mine.
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I'm in the same boat as many others here - I think you think your personal experiences trump anything else anyone says. I'm waiting for you to come up with something to convince me that you are correct in your assessment of strip clubs. I'm not swayed by your emotional arguments, and my lack of agreement with your arguments does not equate to frustration because you're making good ones.
 
Okay, then @chansen let's look at relevant laws already in place using the links I already posted as a starting place to debate the justness/ unjustness of strip club employment practice. Because it is already established by law and strip clubs are already legal. That's not a personal opinion, it's a fact. As it is, they may not be following employment laws which are human rights, and I'd like to debate that using the laws themselves. They differ only slightly by province, so let's look at Ontario since you live there.

http://maytree.com/blog/2012/07/human-rights-in-the-ontario-workplace-what-you-need-to-know/

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-and-guidelines-disability-and-duty-accommodate
 
Sweet , so now we are in agreement that exotic dancers are a trade.

The next question is, are they subject to abuse & violence.
Well, I know that there are bars and sweatshops where women are mistreated.
We didn't decide to shutdown all drinking establishments, nor did we decide to shutdown all sewing locations.
In fact, there are many locations and types of workplaces where individuals are at risk, and there are sections of the population which are more likely to be subjected to violence in those locations, such as illegal immigrants.

One of the things that is done to increase regulations on those businesses, another is to implement safety checks, and there are of course, many others from building codes to employment law.

What would you see as being the primary requirement for better working conditions for exotic dancers?
What stats are available for % of exotic dancers that are at risk currently?
 
Pinga said:
Sweet , so now we are in agreement that exotic dancers are a trade.

The next question is, are they subject to abuse & violence.
Well, I know that there are bars and sweatshops where women are mistreated.
We didn't decide to shutdown all drinking establishments, nor did we decide to shutdown all sewing locations.
In fact, there are many locations and types of workplaces where individuals are at risk, and there are sections of the population which are more likely to be subjected to violence in those locations, such as illegal immigrants.

One of the things that is done to increase regulations on those businesses, another is to implement safety checks, and there are of course, many others from building codes to employment law.

What would you see as being the primary requirement for better working conditions for exotic dancers?
What stats are available for % of exotic dancers that are at risk currently?
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They are. Telegraph line repair was a trade once too. Until it was no longer deemed by a majority as necessary because it was phased out by something that better replaced it.

Can you address basic employment law please, i.e. hiring, job duties and firing and duty to accommodate? Since it is the employees that make it a place of employment? I posted links. With policies. You're avoiding them. We don't even need to broach harassment law yet. Let's look at employment law first.
 
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