Bible Study Thread: Luke

[Redbaron]

Yes, the 8th day for circumcision and naming, and I believe the 40th day for purification. (In the western Church Calendar, January 1 and February 2 respectively.)

 

[paradox3]

Thank you @unsafe for providing us with clarity.

From Leviticus 12 we get the instructions for women after childbirth. In the case of a boy, the mother is ritually unclean for 7 days (as for monthly bleeding) and an additional 33 days. Thus we get the 40 days mentioned above by @Redbaron.

For a girl baby the time is longer.

And now the sacrifices come in.

Leviticus 12: 6 -8

“When the days needed to make her clean are over, she must bring a one-year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a pigeon or a mourning dove as an offering for sin. She must bring them to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7 The priest will offer them in the Lord’s presence to make peace with the Lord for her. Then she will be clean from her flow of blood.

“These are the instructions for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she must use two mourning doves or two pigeons. One will be the burnt offering and the other the offering for sin. So the priest will make peace with the Lord for her, and she will be clean.”

 

[unsafe]

your welcome

 

[paradox3]

The business of the first male child opening the womb is reflected in the present day ritual of Pidyon Haben (see post # 133)

This ritual takes place on the thirtieth day after birth. The ritual does not take place if there has been a previous miscarriage or the birth of a girl.

 

[GordW]

unsafe says ----here we are looking at the Mosaic Law --This Law was brought in to show people their sin not to save people -----so no one was justified by God through the Law -----it pointed out sin not only in the moral side of things but also in the ceremonial side ---so parents had to realize that their child that was just born was born with the sin nature ----and so there was a sin offering ----the male was the one who was circumcised ---there was no circumcision for the girl so the time was doubled instead to make it clear that all born have the sin nature -----

To the best of my knowledge/memory this is the first time I have seen circumcision referred to in regards to a sin offering. What is your source for that?

As I recall, Judaism has much less emphasis on the whole "born with a sinful nature" approach than post-Augustinian Christianity. At the same time the fact that the time for cleansing is doubled when a daughter is born speaks volumes about the perception of females in defining ritual purity.

 

[BetteTheRed]

And it's the bleeding that makes one unclean. Similar to the problem with eating meat that hasn't been "kashered", or its blood removed.

 

[unsafe]

GordW -----your quote -----To the best of my knowledge/memory this is the first time I have seen circumcision referred to in regards to a sin offering. What is your source for that?

unsafe says -----I can see why you ask this -----I should have separated my last part here from the rest -----

My Quote here ---the male was the one who was circumcised ---there was no circumcision for the girl so the time was doubled instead to make it clear that all born have the sin nature

unsafe says ------I was just pointing out that because there was no circumcision for the girl the time was longer ------this has nothing to do with the sin offering you are right there -----


Where the sin nature comes in is the sin offerings presented by the woman ----

unsafe says ------This might help to clear it up --- this is 2 commentary from Leviticus 12 ---posting here

Leviticus 12:6 Commentaries: 'When the days of her purification are completed, for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the doorway of the tent of meeting a one year old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

6-8. the days of her purifying—Though the occasion was of a festive character, yet the sacrifices appointed were not a peace offering, but a burnt offering and sin offering, in order to impress the mind of the parent with recollections of the origin of sin, and that the child inherited a fallen and sinful nature. The offerings were to be presented the day after the period of her separation had ended—that is, forty-first for a boy, eighty-first for a girl.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

12:1-8 Ceremonial purification. - After the laws concerning clean and unclean food, come the laws concerning clean and unclean persons. Man imparts his depraved nature to his offspring, so that, excepting as the atonement of Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit prevent, the original blessing, Increase and multiply, Ge 1:28, is become to the fallen race a direful curse, and communicates sin and misery. Let those women who have received mercy from God in child-bearing, with all thankfulness own God's goodness to them; and this shall please the Lord better than sacrifices.

 

[Carolla]

How bizarre sacrificing small animals sounds to me .....these days we'd say it was an early sign of a psychopath. Another example of a cultural inheritance. Makes one wonder what we erroneously cling to today.

It is so disturbing to our current way of thinking. Just a quick aside - When we visited the Minerva Temple in Assisi in Italy, (built in year 1 BC) it was notable that the stone floor had gutters and drains carved into it alongside the altar - to drain away blood & fluids from sacrifices. It was indeed an odd thing to see and consider.

 

[paradox3]

Compared to Matthew's gospel, Luke gives us very little about Joseph.

In Matthew, the announcement about the conception by the Holy Spirit is made to Joseph in a dream, He is a righteous man who does not wish to expose Mary to public ridicule. In response to the angel, Joseph takes Mary as his wife and does not have sexual relations with her until after the birth of Jesus.

There is none of this in Luke and the angel makes his announcement to Mary.

 

[paradox3]

How bizarre sacrificing small animals sounds to me .....these days we'd say it was an early sign of a psychopath. Another example of a cultural inheritance. Makes one wonder what we erroneously cling to today.

It certainly does.

Do we need to understand this system of sacrifice as the backdrop to the sacrificial death of Jesus?

 

[Carolla]

Compared to Matthew's gospel, Luke gives us very little about Joseph.

In Matthew, the announcement about the conception by the Holy Spirit is made to Joseph in a dream, He is a righteous man who does not wish to expose Mary to public ridicule. In response to the angel, Joseph takes Mary as his wife and does not have sexual relations with her until after the birth of Jesus.

There is none of this in Luke and the angel makes his announcement to Mary.

That's interesting. Were they written around the same time - I'm wondering if there was a change in view of importance in the family if not which influenced the story telling?

 

[paradox3]

Summary: Luke 2: 41 - 50

When Jesus was twelve years old, He went with Mary and Joseph to Jerusalem for the feast of the Passover. They did this every year.

When the festival was over, his parents began to travel home but Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not realize this and after a day's journey, looked for Him among their relatives and acquaintances. Not finding their son, they returned to Jerusalem.

After three days, they found Jesus in the temple, listening to the teachers and asking them questions. All who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. His parents were amazed, too. Mary rebuked Jesus and told him they had been anxiously looking for him. His reply: "Why is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business?" (v. 49 NKJ)

Mary and Joseph did not understand what He meant.

After returning to Nazareth, Jesus was obedient to them. His mother held these things in her heart. Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and men.

 

[paradox3]

Reflection: Luke 2: 41 - 50

An interesting story about Jesus lingering in Jerusalem after his parents have headed for home. Mary & Joseph are in the company of many acquaintances & relatives and it takes a day before they realize Jesus is not with them. They return to Jerusalem and find him in the temple after three days. Assuming it took a day to get back there, what happened to the other 2 days? Did they look everywhere else before deciding to try the temple?

The teachers in the temple are amazed at Jesus and so are His parents. Mary and Joseph don't understand what He means when he tells them he has been about his father's business.

On return to Nazareth, He is obedient to his parents.

Once again, we see Mary pondering everything in her heart. She must be wondering about the nature of the young man she is raising. In this story he is acting very human (typical adolescent being a little dismissive of his parents) but at the same time, he is something of a prodigy. His parents are surprised by him.

Do we continue to ponder these things in our own hearts? To wonder about the nature of Jesus? And to be surprised by Him?

 

[unsafe]

At the age of 12 Jesus enters the Temple -----Jesus is showing here a sense of Mission and self awareness of who he is in my view here at such a young age -----and he confirms this when his parents find him and he says ------49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”

unsafe says ---Spiritually Speaking here -----We as children of God should be as diligent as Jesus at his young age to seek and remain in our Quest for keeping Christ in our mist -----We who are Children of the Most High often loose our focus on the things of God ---We stray away Like Mary and Joseph who left and wandered away to do their own business and end up with a heavy heart -----

How bad it is for us Children of the Most High who Wander to do our own affairs without Christ in us directing us ----we end up in a bad situation like Mary and Joseph who left their child and then felt the stress and anguish of having to go find him -----the peace and Joy of the Lord is behind us -----we are outside His Rest ------

Jesus was in his rightful place in pace --rest and in joy serving his Father's will ------while his parents were in turmoil -----


Mary and Joseph did not understand what Jesus said even though they had been visited by the Divine and encountered and believed and received in what was told to them -----but yet couldn't fully understand what Jesus was meaning at such a young age about being in his Father's House ------The Divine Consciousness was beyond them in what their son was saying ------This shows what great Spiritual Wisdom and Divine understanding Jesus had at 12 years old -----

Jesus also refers to His Father which also shows a family relationship and intimacy that he was connecting to ------


unsafe says ---this is interesting as well ----the comparison between John the Baptise in Luke 1 and Jesus in Luke 2

Luke 1:80 (NKJV)
80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.

Luke 2:40(NKJV)
40 And the Child grew and became strong]in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

 

[Mendalla]

Luke 2:41-50 aka the Biblical version of "Home Alone". Except he isn't home.

I like this as a story. You could easily expand it into a TV episode or short movie, with the family having adventures as they frantically look for Jesus while he casually chats with the temple elders about the Law and Prophets. The punch line, of course, is that Jesus really was "home" in a real sense given his mission. It at once gives you a sense of them as a real family, but also a sense of Jesus' place and purpose. All in 10 verses.

 

[paradox3]

This story entered into some of our discussion on the Matthew thread. We were considering Joseph and Mary as parents and speculating about their effect on Jesus. A few participants on the thread jumped ahead to this story and thought it put His parents in a bad light.

I think it is a great little story which demonstrates the dual nature of Jesus extremely well.

Interesting that it only appears in Luke's gospel.

 

[Redbaron]

The story does show that at the young age, Jesus seems to have an inkling about his life's work. And that Mary did a lot of pondering.

 

[Mendalla]

And that Mary did a lot of pondering.

Better than being ponderous, I guess.

She does come across as someone prone to taking things seriously and thinking deeply about them, doesn't she?

 

[Redbaron]

Indeed. Sometimes I wonder what was going through Joseph's mind. He seems to disappear right around this point.

 

[Mendalla]

He seems to disappear right around this point.

Went out for a pack of cigs one night and never came home. No wonder his kid turned out the way he did.