Transgenderism ..... ask your questions!

[revjohn]

Hi Pr. Jae,

Never suggested that. What I was conversing about was gender, and I have already commented (to crazyheart) regarding my use of the word "mistake."

True. You didn't. As RitaTG affirms there is often conflation and in responding I felt it necessary to start with sexual orientation in order to clear some room for what follows. This is necessary since, as you admit upthread, you don't believe God makes mistakes.

If we accept, as given that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice then we must next confront the issue of where it falls within the scheme of all things created.

From there it is easier to discuss transgenderism and whether it will be accepted or rejected.

So much is tied up in how communities of faith approach issues directly related to human sexuality.

 

[Seeler]

At my home church we periodically have a Rainbow Brunch inviting all 'LGBTQA (Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans, Queer, and Allies) to participate in a social, supportive, affirming atmosphere. I have been attending as an Ally, a friend who enjoys the company of several friends who attend, wants to be supportive, and wants to learn more and broaden my outlook. Through this group I met a man who I had presumed had always been a man, and who I thought might be Gay because of the group. After a few meetings, when I guess he felt it was safe to do so, he shared his story about transitioning from female. My heart went out to him; he had faced so many obstacles. In our church parlor he felt safe. He cautioned that he was not 'out' at work or with the general public. He was in our area temporarily with work and has since been transferred to another location. I miss him; I feel there was so much to learn from him.
I realize that this is not a question, but just an observation. I think perhaps the LGBTQA community has been linked together because they are so often rejected by the rest of society. I look forward to the time when it might be a non-issue.

 

[RitaTG]

RitaTG, great thread.
All, great questions, conersation.

Rita, I know that we have a binary understanding of gender: Male/Female.
At one point, we had (and some folks would say we still have: a binary understanding of sexuality: Gay / Straight

Do you see any movement to allow for less binary understandings of gender and gender presentation

My goodness yes!!!!!!
Oh my!!! ... you should see what is happening here in Northern Ontario!!!
Here is a link for you....
http://www.northernlife.ca/news/localNews/2014/10/03-rita-olink-tg-innerselves-sudbury.aspx
Our group has received funding from the Ontario Trillium Foundation to carry this sort of conversation across the north.
With the attention of the media .... times are changing rapidly!!
I am so excited and so glad that I live at a historic time such as this!

 

[Jon71]

How can I best fit an acceptance of transgenderism into my theology of believing in a God who is the Creator of all life and who doesn't make mistakes?

Not wanting to take anything away from what Rita said but personally I have always believed that God sometimes gives people a journey in life. It could be a literal one like Abraham being sent to the promised land or David transforming from poor shepherd boy to king or Rita transitioning from male to female. You and I and all who are born again are transformed when we accept Christ. The Bible is full of transformations and journeys, why not from one gender to another.

 

[crazyheart]

I have a question but I don't want to be rude about it. When I see parades and I see the LGBTQA community(not all, but some)
dress outrageously and acting inappropriately ( in some folk's minds,) is this helping or hindering your movement? (If movement is the word to use).

 

[crazyheart]

. The Bible is full of transformations and journeys, why not from one gender to another.

This quote is something for folk to think about. Thanks Jon.

 

[RitaTG]

I have a question but I don't want to be rude about it. When I see parades and I see the LGBTQA community(not all, but some)
dress outrageously and acting inappropriately ( in some folk's minds,) is this helping or hindering your movement? (If movement is the word to use).

A very good and necessary question .... thank you crazyheart....
The reason for the outrageous dress goes back to the very first parade .... actually a spontaneous illegal protest march that was part of the famous Stonewall riots (June 1969).
http://www.civilrights.org/archives/2009/06/449-stonewall.html
New York .... the Stonewall Inn .... the LGBTQ crowd got tired of being harassed by the police. A riot ... protests ... a march... we are not taking it anymore! In your face .... this is what you accuse us of .... we are going to rub your nose in it.....
A movement of defiance ....anger ... hurt ..... needing to be out....
Actually the leaders of the civil disobedience was the trans community as they were especially maligned and made example of by the police.
That is the history and that is why the outrageous still clings to the movement ... there is still stigma and this is the historical way of confronting it. More and more .... it is taking on a Mardi Gras sort of celebration.....
This is an aspect that personally I am not comfortable with.....
We are now part of the Pride committee here where I live ..... we are helping to change things..... helping to "mature" the movement. Many LGBTQ persons in our city have families and quite conventional everyday lives. They do not come out for the parade because as they say "that is not who they are".
A new day here ..... the theme here in Sudbury was "Neighbours, Friends, Family" ..... and was very successful. There was no scantily dressed persons and no over the top behaviour ..... just LGBTQ persons and supporters.
The response of the general community has been amazing and now everyday LGBTQ persons are starting to come out and celebrate the progress that has been made.
Change .... difficult for all of us .... difficult for movements .... but we can change things!....

 

[Jaebius]

Rita, since transgenderism (is that the correct word?) is not related to sexual orientation - why do Ts band together with Ls, Gs, and Bs into the LGBT community?

 

[Mendalla]

My question: How do the transgender community deal with the issue of trans people in the sex trade and the portrayal of themselves in that business? There are those who seem to see being a "ladyboy" or "tranny" (to use two terms I've seen used) as more of a kink than anything and that has to cause some problems for you, doesn't it?

 

[RitaTG]

Rita, since transgenderism (is that the correct word?) is not related to sexual orientation - why do Ts band together with Ls, Gs, and Bs into the LGBT community?

The answer is historical Jae .....
Back ... not so long ago .... transgenderism was regarded as a sexual deviancy as was homosexuality.
The two issues were regarded as one issue so we were all lumped in together.... put the deviants together.....
For the religious community this was a simplistic and convenient arrangement.
We became a mutually supporting community of misfits. We don't really understand each other but we share a common experience of persecution, discrimination, oppression, misinformation, and misunderstanding.
There is our bond.....
Thank you for the question....

 

[Jaebius]

--- duplicate ---

 

[Jaebius]

The answer is historical Jae .....
Back ... not so long ago .... transgenderism was regarded as a sexual deviancy as was homosexuality.
The two issues were regarded as one issue so we were all lumped in together.... put the deviants together.....
For the religious community this was a simplistic and convenient arrangement.
We became a mutually supporting community of misfits. We don't really understand each other but we share a common experience of persecution, discrimination, oppression, misinformation, and misunderstanding.
There is our bond.....
Thank you for the question....

The "Like" button doesn't appear when I'm on my Windows Phone, so I will just write "Like" for your answer.

 

[RitaTG]

My question: How do the transgender community deal with the issue of trans people in the sex trade and the portrayal of themselves in that business? There are those who seem to see being a "ladyboy" or "tranny" (to use two terms I've seen used) as more of a kink than anything and that has to cause some problems for you, doesn't it?

Yes it does Mendalla.....
Consider this ...... living in $15,000 per year or less ..... that is 51% of us....
Easy money ..... we are sexually in demand by a rather unsavoury crowd.....
Money needed for clothes, drugs, surgery ...... here is a way.....
Wanting to feel sexually attractive and wanted ..... being regarded as sexy ..... a big motivator....
Yes there are all the derogatory names ..... we share that with cis-gendered women that ply the sex trade as well.
Quite a problem ..... and then there is the barrier of just overall rejection by everyday society.....
As I have said before ..... anything you leave to grow in the dark is not going to turn out well.
Now consider what is it like when a person is denied the light......
Thank you for that question....

 

[Jaebius]

Yes it does Mendalla.....
Consider this ...... living in $15,000 per year or less ..... that is 51% of us....
Easy money ..... we are sexually in demand by a rather unsavoury crowd.....
Money needed for clothes, drugs, surgery ...... here is a way.....
Wanting to feel sexually attractive and wanted ..... being regarded as sexy ..... a big motivator....
Yes there are all the derogatory names ..... we share that with cis-gendered women that ply the sex trade as well.
Quite a problem ..... and then there is the barrier of just overall rejection by everyday society.....
As I have said before ..... anything you leave to grow in the dark is not going to turn out well.
Now consider what is it like when a person is denied the light......
Thank you for that question....

(mushrooms grow well in the dark - just sayin'. I do get, and appreciate, your analogy.)

 

[crazyheart]

Thank you , RitaTG

 

[BetteTheRed]

For me, the link between orientation and gender identity is that of the relationships you maintain or form. If you remain with the same partner through a transition to your "brain" gender, then, at least theoretically, their orientation changes, right?

 

[Mendalla]

I'm interested to hear Rita's response but my first thought is that that is not necessarily the case. The partner could well be bisexual in orientation which would remain unchanged and, in fact, I'd suspect that a partner who remains through such a transition likely would be bi to some degree. After all, Kinsey and others have shown that orientation is a continuum, not a simple scale of Straight - Bi - Gay.

 

[Ritafee]

Yes it does Mendalla.....
Consider this ...... living in $15,000 per year or less ..... that is 51% of us....
Easy money ..... we are sexually in demand by a rather unsavoury crowd.....
Money needed for clothes, drugs, surgery ...... here is a way.....
Wanting to feel sexually attractive and wanted ..... being regarded as sexy ..... a big motivator....
Yes there are all the derogatory names ..... we share that with cis-gendered women that ply the sex trade as well.
Quite a problem ..... and then there is the barrier of just overall rejection by everyday society.....
As I have said before ..... anything you leave to grow in the dark is not going to turn out well.
Now consider what is it like when a person is denied the light......
Thank you for that question....

This pretty much answers the questions I had ... as with any transitions ... money or lack thereof becomes the determinator of means to an end.

 

[Carolla]

Excellent thread Rita - I'm so honoured to have you here.

In our hospitals, where many/most inpatient rooms are shared - most institutions still sort by "plumbing" to assign patients to rooms . This can be challenging for trans folk who have not transitioned "the plumbing", but usually we can work out solutions - often by providing private rooms. Stigma and discomfort still run high (sadly) & so this seems often to be the best option for all - would you agree or do you have other suggestions?

I'm wondering about the jail & prison system too - where such accommodations may not be feasible. It must be unbelievably difficult for trans folk to be in those institutions. Are there any initiatives that you know of to accommodate transgendered people who must be securely incarcerated?

 

[RitaTG]

For me, the link between orientation and gender identity is that of the relationships you maintain or form. If you remain with the same partner through a transition to your "brain" gender, then, at least theoretically, their orientation changes, right?

Well BetteTheRed ... you certainly honed in on a dilemma that most trans persons and their partners have or will struggle with.
The agony of trying to find a label that fits as if somehow that will magically resolve who we are and what we are supposed to do.
For most trans persons ... we are more and more defining our sexual orientation based on our heart rather than our plumbing.
However ... what about the ones in between on the gender spectrum .... far more difficult.
This is because our language for sexual orientation is based on the myth of the gender binary.
We need new language .... actually ... perhaps not....
Would it not be better to just focus on the one you love irrespective of biological sex or gender identity?
Wouldn't it be nice to be free to just love the person??