Whose Land is it Anyway?????

[Seeler]

Does the Qu'ran actually say that all the seed of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob (that is all Israelites, Jews) should be killed - or is that an interpretation by extremists?
Can someone give me an English translation of the actual quote in context. I had never heard this before.

 

[Waterfall]

I agree with you Mandella but we are somewhat on the outside looking in. But then again maybe that's a good thing. I do think we have to recognize the history that has caused the anger in order to move forward thogh.

A couple years back my stepmother overturned my late fathers intentions and left everything to her children in her will. All her children were raised and gone when they married. My father knew them casually as they all lived in the US. It came down to a legal definition beteween a mirror will and a mutual will and which one did they have.? Long story short, the adult stepchildren inherited and none of us did, dispite my parents 27 year marriage that produced 4 offspring. It does create anger and resentment but eventually yes.....one does have to reach an acceptance and move forward.

It's a micro experience relating to a macro problem but I can imagine the resentment that has carried forward.

 

[Waterfall]

Does the Qu'ran actually say that all the seed of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob (that is all Israelites, Jews) should be killed - or is that an interpretation by extremists?
Can someone give me an English translation of the actual quote in context. I had never heard this before.

I tried to find a reference for this in the article I was reading and it does not contain a book or verse from the quran and when I google I get Christian sites opinions on this. Sigh...good catch.

 

[airclean33]

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise

 

[JRT]

Meanwhile the situation in the Holy Land hasn't changed much since Biblical times. Various groups that are basically the same genetically are massacring each other.

The same has happened recently in Serbia/ Croatia/, Bosnia.

 

[Delightful Life]

It is ironic that all these deaths are kin killing kin*

Doubly ironic because all of these countries are left-over technology from the time when the world used to be ruled by what buckminster fuller called 'Great Pirates', who created countries as protection for themselves and a source of employees and resources

Triply ironic because we all are kin...some 70,000 years ago a volcano in Lake Toba, Sumatra**, Indonesia, erupted...which caused global climate change, leading to humanity almost being wiped out. All of us here on earth, according to this scientific theory, are descended from a mere 40 to 10,000 breeding pairs.

(which makes me think, perhaps this, in some form, was included in the bibble in some form? adam and eve myth being flung out of paradise to suffer...)


* if only they could be convinced of their kinship, then the killing would lessen, because being kin is sacred. land is sacred. in some cultures, war is sacred -- you aren't considered a man until you do something i would consider horrific to another tribe. etc. check out Scott Atran's book for more grokking

* *any time i come across that name, i always think aboot the Rat, Giant entry in the original Monster's Manual...it was exotic back then, a rat the size of a dog to worry the party with...a fierce illustration as well

 

[Neo]

Except that's not how the Bible words it or how many Christians have seen it over the centuries which is the attitude I was referring to. Perhaps an attitude of stewardship is needed given our ability to control and manipulate the world but it is recognition of those abilities and the risks of using them, not a God-given right. The dominion part, though, has to go. It has been misused and abused too much.

Yea, I'm not too sure what the typical Christian view of this is. I see it more as a natural order of things for humanity in general, and not so much isolated to a particular religion.

 

[Delightful Life]

another perspectacle

the land owns us

 

[Delightful Life]

so many different people with different perspectacles, different likes, values, dislikes, educations, categories of what they find to be untouchable (sacred and its opposite blasphemy) and there is less and less ways to be fooled that we are separate islands unto ourselves, causeless causes with no effects, that we will not be judged for our actions...

to try to create some sort of global system that isn't based on an unchangeable belief but rather on what IS? which includes, but is not limited to, examining such belief systems as a family, as an economic system, as a country, as human nature, etc etc etc

 

[chansen]

Perhaps (and this is a suggestion for kicking around, not necessarily my position) we need to stop trying to run 21st century geopolitics based on 7th century CE (in the case of the Qu'ran) or even older (in the case of the Torah) religion and start viewing it through the lens of two tribal cultures in conflict and how to resolve that conflict. Yes, we need to recognize the role that the scriptures are playing in the conflict but in doing so, maybe we also need to recognize that the solution may not lie in those scriptures, but in a secularized Middle Eastern geopolitics. As long as religion and ancient history dictate, or at least influence, politics in that region, I don't really see the dust settling.

Pretty much this.

 

[Neo]

Perhaps (and this is a suggestion for kicking around, not necessarily my position) we need to stop trying to run 21st century geopolitics based on 7th century CE (in the case of the Qu'ran) or even older (in the case of the Torah) religion and start viewing it through the lens of two tribal cultures in conflict and how to resolve that conflict. Yes, we need to recognize the role that the scriptures are playing in the conflict but in doing so, maybe we also need to recognize that the solution may not lie in those scriptures, but in a secularized Middle Eastern geopolitics. As long as religion and ancient history dictate, or at least influence, politics in that region, I don't really see the dust settling.

The real reason for this "geopolitics" is power. Simple and sweet. The scriptures may be used as the justification but the end result is still all about power, which is not what true scripture teaches to begin with.

The old ways, I believe, are proving, day by day, less and less effective. People are joining thier voices and their combined voice will move mountains. Even the mightiest of empires can fall, if the people will it.

Power is of two kinds. One is obtained by the fear of punishment and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent then the one derived from fear of punishment.

 

[Hermann]

The real reason for this "geopolitics" is power. Simple and sweet. The scriptures may be used as the justification but the end result is still all about power, which is not what true scripture teaches to begin with.

The old ways, I believe, are proving, day by day, less and less effective. People are joining their voices and their combined will move mountains. Even the mightiest of empires can fall, if the people will it.

"For the times, they are a'changin' " eh?