Whose Land is it Anyway?????

[GordW]

That is my sermon title this week. THe NL Scripture reading is Genesis 12:1-9 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=277193270). Here is my early thought post:
http://ministerialmutterings.blogspot.ca/2014/09/looking-forward-to-september-14-2014.html

ANd here is a video I might use (do yourself a favour and don't start to read the comments)

What does it mean to claim land as MINE or OURS?

 

[Seeler]

The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and they that dwell therein;
for he has founded it upon the ---- and established it upon the floods.
(sorry, I don't remember the exact words; but the idea is there - the earth and everything in it belongs to God.)

 

[KayTheCurler]

The earth isn't ours - it is given to us to hold in trust for our grandchildren. (I think this is roughly based on the words of an aboriginal leader from long ago).

 

[Mendalla]

We do not own the Earth (no one does); We are a part of the Earth. We exist as part of a multi-billion year-old system (the "interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part" in UU-speak) and live or die based on what happens in that system. One stray space rock or take our own carelessness too far and we will be gone but the Earth will abide. Our passing will be a painful wound to the Earth, but hardly a mortal one (it has survived five mass extinctions, the sixth one that we are causing is just one more).

Perhaps, if we could think in these terms, of being tied into and dependent on the systems that drive existence, rather in the Biblical language of being given "dominion" or even "stewardship" over the Earth that puts us somehow apart from, and even above, those systems, maybe we'd make some progress.

 

[Hermann]

Whose planet is it?

As Mendalla said, our planet belongs to the cosmic totality.

 

[Waterfall]

And yet didnt God give the Israelites the promised land? Is this an example of God not claiming the land?

 

[GordW]

And yet didnt God give the Israelites the promised land? Is this an example of God not claiming the land?

ANd the land was already occupied when that Scriptural promise is made...which is problematic for those of us who now see GOd as more than a tribal deity. Gets close to the title of my next sermon (September 28) where I ask if God plays favourites

 

[Hermann]

And yet didnt God give the Israelites the promised land? Is this an example of God not claiming the land?

Well, Waterfall, one of the advantages of being a pantheist is that God is the land. No need to give it to anyone, no need for anyone to claim it. It already is everyone's.

 

[Mendalla]

Well, Waterfall, one of the advantages of being a pantheist is that God is the land. No need to give it to anyone, no need for anyone to claim it. It already is everyone's.

And no one's, since we do not own in the property sense but in the sense of it being a shared resource/heritage.

 

[Hermann]

And no one's, since we do not own in the property sense but in the sense of it being a shared resource/heritage.

Yes, Mendalla, of course.

 

[Waterfall]

ANd the land was alreadide occupied when that Scriptural promise is made...which is problematic for those of us who now see GOd as more than a tribal deity. Gets close to the title of my next sermon (September 28) where I ask if God plays favourites

Is he playing favourites or does the land offer us a chance to identify ourselves and to whom we belong? It used to be that we inherited the land from our family and even now how many of us relate to our ancestral home as to where we came from originally? Our roots dont always imply a physical memory but also a spiritual one.

 

[Neo]

We do not own the Earth (no one does); We are a part of the Earth. We exist as part of a multi-billion year-old system (the "interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part" in UU-speak) and live or die based on what happens in that system. One stray space rock or take our own carelessness too far and we will be gone but the Earth will abide. Our passing will be a painful wound to the Earth, but hardly a mortal one (it has survived five mass extinctions, the sixth one that we are causing is just one more).

Perhaps, if we could think in these terms, of being tied into and dependent on the systems that drive existence, rather in the Biblical language of being given "dominion" or even "stewardship" over the Earth that puts us somehow apart from, and even above, those systems, maybe we'd make some progress.

I totally agree with the interdependence and the part and parcel concept. The dominion and stewardship, however, from what I understand, has to do with the cycles of manifestation and how human beings have physically grown out of the animal kingdom, and the animals out of the plants, etc.

We can still be part and parcel of the world yet stand above, in self awareness, the kingdoms below us. Just as the next kingdom, "thy kingdom come", will have a natural dominance over us, so do we oversee the lower kingdoms on this planet.

The dominion and stewardship of our planet has to be done with sincere respect. It's one the great lessons, I believe, that Humanity needs to learn.

 

[Delightful Life]

And yet didnt God give the Israelites the promised land? Is this an example of God not claiming the land?

one could guess that land given by one's Deity would be ExtraSpecialDoublePlusGood land as well, almost, perhaps, some kind of UberLand that would supersede all other claims of ownership of that land?

 

[Delightful Life]

What does it mean to claim land as MINE or OURS?

There are many different co-terminous ways

Legal
Historical
Literature
Economic
Temporal

Can you think of any more?

One innovation that the Jews proved is that a people & their culture & ways etcetcetc can still remain a people and have no country, belying the current Belief System of 'people' needing a state to be a people

And aboot giving a land back to the 'original people' -- there really is no such animal -- go far enough back, and the 'original people' have even more 'original people' and the many flora and fauna there...

Your g_d, taking it not as a metaphor but as some kind of being, has quite the sense of humour, human lives being used for punch lines...

 

[Mendalla]

The dominion and stewardship, however, from what I understand, has to do with the cycles of manifestation and how human beings have physically grown out of the animal kingdom, and the animals out of the plants, etc.

Except that's not how the Bible words it or how many Christians have seen it over the centuries which is the attitude I was referring to. Perhaps an attitude of stewardship is needed given our ability to control and manipulate the world but it is recognition of those abilities and the risks of using them, not a God-given right. The dominion part, though, has to go. It has been misused and abused too much.

 

[Waterfall]

one could guess that land given by one's Deity would be ExtraSpecialDoublePlusGood land as well, almost, perhaps, some kind of UberLand that would supersede all other claims of ownership of that land?

It was Caanan, the land flowing with milk and honey occupied by the Caanonites, a nation that spoke a language very closely resembling Hebrew, probably because Canaan was the grandson of Noah and son of Ham. Some say they were occupying the land given to Shem.....so centuries later they came back to reclaim the land from their nasty relatives.


Not sure if I have that right.....or it could be that Ham looked upon a naked drunken Noah and centuries later God will get you for that

 

[Waterfall]

Apparently we are to love our enemies but not our bad relatives.

 

[Church Secretary]

If God gave the land to the Israelites then the land theoretically belongs to their descendants, right?

The Palestinians are roughly 80% genetically descended from the original Israelites, and modern Israelis are roughly 70% genetically descended from the Israelites. The conclusion I draw from that is that if there is a God-given right to the land they both have it, not either of them.

By the same logic, as a person of mainly British European descent I feel that people of Aboriginal descent have more rights to the land where I live than I do.

Meanwhile the situation in the Holy Land hasn't changed much since Biblical times. Various groups that are basically the same genetically are massacring each other.

 

[Waterfall]

If God gave the land to the Israelites then the land theoretically belongs to their descendants, right?.

This seems to be the whole problem IMO. Abraham had two sons named Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac from his legal wife Sarah and Ishmael from his servant Hagar, who was chosen by his wife Sarah to have a son for Abraham because she thought she was barren and didnt have faith that God would keep His promise to her to have a son. Ishmael became the father of the Arab nations who claim he is the firstborn and thus inherits the land, and Isaac who the Jews claim is the legitimate heir and the one that God promised to come.

Who cares right? But here's what I find interesting. In the Koran, Allah demands that the seed of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob should all be killed, but in the Bible, God confirms his blessing on Isaac and Jacob but also promises Ishmael and his descendents will form a great nation that will prosper. So the Koran encourages Jihad and the Bible offers blessings and promises. In the end, supposedly, the Arabs are going to believe the prophesy of the Bible and not the Koran. They certainly have prospered in many Arab nations.

 

[Mendalla]

Perhaps (and this is a suggestion for kicking around, not necessarily my position) we need to stop trying to run 21st century geopolitics based on 7th century CE (in the case of the Qu'ran) or even older (in the case of the Torah) religion and start viewing it through the lens of two tribal cultures in conflict and how to resolve that conflict. Yes, we need to recognize the role that the scriptures are playing in the conflict but in doing so, maybe we also need to recognize that the solution may not lie in those scriptures, but in a secularized Middle Eastern geopolitics. As long as religion and ancient history dictate, or at least influence, politics in that region, I don't really see the dust settling.