Homeopathy is not water. I have never seen homeopathic water. I have seen homeopathic tablets, which contain mostly sugar and minute amounts of the active substance. They cost about $6 a bottle. How they dillute, to make the pills I think is with water. It is probably mostly bunk - placebo at best- but I don't know why you keep arguing that it is water.
How do we know what is true?
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ChemGal
One with keen eye
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In one study, the amount of salicin after 1 and 2 year growth in autumn and spring ranged from 0.08 - 12.6%.
Source: Willow bark | University of Maryland Medical Center http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/willow-bark#ixzz39e1Laclv
I'll play with some more consistent numbers, in a hypothetical situation.
Lets say within an area, most willow trees of a specific species produce 80-120 mg / g of dried bark. So instead of varying from 0.08%-12.6% we've changed it to 8-12%. I had to look up a standard pill - 325 mg. So 3 g of bark will get you about a typical pill. There is also a compound that has harmful effects, but you need 3.5 - 4 g of the bark before getting quite sick. Some of the trees fall outside of the range, and 3 g of the bark will cause them to be ill due to the secondary compound. Some are also great at making ASA, whereas some produce very little, so the 80-120 mg /g only occurs 99% of the time, and 1% of the time someone either gets no benefit from ASA, or gets way too much.
^ That's where non-purified, non-standardized basic natural products. You need 3g of bark to get a basic dose, and you can't take as much as normal, due to another compound. There's also the risk of getting sick from the occasional batch that contains more of the compound, and sometimes overdosing or underdosing is an issue. Mixing up the bark from numerous trees can help prevent some of the issues, but if a company starts to grow their own trees, that originate from only a few 'parent' trees, the might end up with a large percent that are outlayers - producing lots or little ASA, or having a large amount of the secondary compound.
Now take this out of a company and into the hands of the public. Are they actually starting with a tree that's the right species? Can we trust them to dry the bark enough? There are enough problems with people taking medications properly, now we are going to give them information about mg/g of dried bark and trust them to weigh out a dose? What about when we throw in other natural products to the mix. People mix up labelled meds all the time, I think baggies of dried bark & herbs would be worse.
Rather than putting in the money & effort into studies like these, I would rather we find new treatments that we don't have already. Personally, rather than going out and finding willow bark, I would rather just buy a pill.
Source: Willow bark | University of Maryland Medical Center http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/willow-bark#ixzz39e1Laclv
I'll play with some more consistent numbers, in a hypothetical situation.
Lets say within an area, most willow trees of a specific species produce 80-120 mg / g of dried bark. So instead of varying from 0.08%-12.6% we've changed it to 8-12%. I had to look up a standard pill - 325 mg. So 3 g of bark will get you about a typical pill. There is also a compound that has harmful effects, but you need 3.5 - 4 g of the bark before getting quite sick. Some of the trees fall outside of the range, and 3 g of the bark will cause them to be ill due to the secondary compound. Some are also great at making ASA, whereas some produce very little, so the 80-120 mg /g only occurs 99% of the time, and 1% of the time someone either gets no benefit from ASA, or gets way too much.
^ That's where non-purified, non-standardized basic natural products. You need 3g of bark to get a basic dose, and you can't take as much as normal, due to another compound. There's also the risk of getting sick from the occasional batch that contains more of the compound, and sometimes overdosing or underdosing is an issue. Mixing up the bark from numerous trees can help prevent some of the issues, but if a company starts to grow their own trees, that originate from only a few 'parent' trees, the might end up with a large percent that are outlayers - producing lots or little ASA, or having a large amount of the secondary compound.
Now take this out of a company and into the hands of the public. Are they actually starting with a tree that's the right species? Can we trust them to dry the bark enough? There are enough problems with people taking medications properly, now we are going to give them information about mg/g of dried bark and trust them to weigh out a dose? What about when we throw in other natural products to the mix. People mix up labelled meds all the time, I think baggies of dried bark & herbs would be worse.
Rather than putting in the money & effort into studies like these, I would rather we find new treatments that we don't have already. Personally, rather than going out and finding willow bark, I would rather just buy a pill.
ChemGal
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I have, it was eye drops recommended by a pharmacist when my allergy symptoms were so bad I couldn't see well enough to drive. I sent Chemguy out with specific instructions about which drops to get and the pharmacy didn't carry them, even though there are a few brands. He showed me the bottle the next time we were at the same location together. There would have been some salt in it too.
Delightful Life
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https://www.freesound.org/people/realtheremin/sounds/119012/
Careful there, you might be doing EVIL SCIENCE
ChemGal
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I'm not a mycologist, but I have grown and extracted compounds from fungus. I personally haven't done this with plants, but people I worked with have. They weren't botanists, but biochemists.
Okay. But it's not a drink. They may sell cream that's mostly might as well be hand lotion (but arnica works!)
Thank you for the tree info. Do you think people having survival skills in botany and not being fully reliant on consumer products (even edit: naturopathy) is a good idea or bad idea?
Personally, i think the way the world is going - interdisciplinary approaches to looking at health (and what determines 'health' - it is not all just the body) is important. I think the influence of marketing making us totally reliant on consumer goods is dangerous, and so is just having a handful of industries wielding the greatest influence on everything in our world.
I want homeopathy edit: meant naturopathy - to be more respected in it's own right, also, and to leave people alone to choose. They are educated people, NDs - and by the sounds of it medical schools are not free from erroneous education anyway.
Thank you for the tree info. Do you think people having survival skills in botany and not being fully reliant on consumer products (even edit: naturopathy) is a good idea or bad idea?
Personally, i think the way the world is going - interdisciplinary approaches to looking at health (and what determines 'health' - it is not all just the body) is important. I think the influence of marketing making us totally reliant on consumer goods is dangerous, and so is just having a handful of industries wielding the greatest influence on everything in our world.
I want homeopathy edit: meant naturopathy - to be more respected in it's own right, also, and to leave people alone to choose. They are educated people, NDs - and by the sounds of it medical schools are not free from erroneous education anyway.
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Delightful Life
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Didja hear the one ( a few years back ) aboot a homeopathic bomb?
It'd be the ultimate undetectable bomb because the explosive would be diluted until there is no active ingredient left
Good thing no terrorist has made one
Or have they?
It'd be the ultimate undetectable bomb because the explosive would be diluted until there is no active ingredient left
Good thing no terrorist has made one
Or have they?
ChemGal
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Knowledge is great. We can't do everything and know everything though. We have pretty much always had a certain amount of specialization of tasks. We know more now than we ever used to and our quality of life has improved IMO, and that involves more specialists.
I am not able to produce my own medicines, build my own shelter, grow my own food, produce my own electricity, etc all on my own. but I want those things.
Interdisciplinary has been HUGE in science for a while, and I don't think that's going to stop. Years ago you wouldn't hear about a chemical biology program like what I had been doing. People still specialize, but collaboration is big and I think it's going to expand for a while.
I am not able to produce my own medicines, build my own shelter, grow my own food, produce my own electricity, etc all on my own. but I want those things.
Interdisciplinary has been HUGE in science for a while, and I don't think that's going to stop. Years ago you wouldn't hear about a chemical biology program like what I had been doing. People still specialize, but collaboration is big and I think it's going to expand for a while.
chansen
Had a point all along
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I love how, after you're shown to be wrong, you just bounce to the next idea. No apology, no recognition that you don't know what you're talking about...nothing. You just go after the next angle.
You could do those things if you moved to Taos NM and built an "earthship", chemgal. 
I know you likely won't. I likely won't either but I do think we need to start thinking about what in the world influences our future. It is not all good. Not at all.
I know you likely won't. I likely won't either but I do think we need to start thinking about what in the world influences our future. It is not all good. Not at all.
Delightful Life
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Talking aboot Interdisciplining...lots of that going around! LIKE A PLAGUE OF SCIENCE--but unlike bad plagues, this one HELPS humanity by making it smarter and wiser
remember Isaac Asimov's Psychohistory? Well, we aren't there yet..
E.O. Wilson -- what an awesome guy. Loves ants.
This used to be around everywhere in the USA
these guys are Canadian
https://www.youtube.com/user/PIOutreach
The Long Now Foundation
A theoretical & experimental physicist looking at biology
and, of course, what map projection you like says a lot aboot you (move over oscarmeyer's riggs, science is here)
https://www.xkcd.com/977/
remember Isaac Asimov's Psychohistory? Well, we aren't there yet..
E.O. Wilson -- what an awesome guy. Loves ants.
https://www.youtube.com/user/PIOutreach
The Long Now Foundation
A theoretical & experimental physicist looking at biology
and, of course, what map projection you like says a lot aboot you (move over oscarmeyer's riggs, science is here)
https://www.xkcd.com/977/
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You're right. I'm sorry, chemgal. I consider chemgal a friend and I hope she can understand that I realize I am not a scientist but I have other concerns - socioeconomic ones. I am not out to demolish scientific expertise - I want more freedom from consumerism and powerful industry telling me how to live my life - especially my health because I know what helps me feel better and what doesn't for certain things. It may not add years to my life but at the rate the world is going with the powerful lobbies that block it from getting better - I am so frustrated at how nothing's changing (a Noam Chomsky piece I read last night will terrify you about the lies we believe)- I am starting to wonder if I really want to live past 70 or 80 anyway, on a scorched planet, in a hazmat suit, relying on drugs to get me through. How about you? I don't want to be fatalistic, but optimistic. It gets really hard when people don't really want to find solutions and depend on the status quo - when the status quo has big problems...then again, I got after someone else here for similar - I want to be an optimist! I have some insight! Stop trying to take the wind out of my sails all the time.
ChemGal
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I highly doubt I would be able to meet all my needs. Needles, syringes, enough berinert, my asthma & allergy meds. I probably wouldn't have lived without a surgery I had when I was little.
Put me back 150 years or whatever, and I'm certain I would have been one of those who didn't survive to adulthood.
I don't think things are perfect. I got frustrated enough where I actually did create a change to an issue in the health care system. I see progress though. Drug companies do bad things sometimes, but people care. I think it was you who posted an article about med school and pain medication. Someone cared, and when it was brought up other people cared enough to change things. The internet can be great for this. If the public would focus on the important things it could really help. The existence of big pharm is not the issue, we need them. It's the way some things are conducted that's an issue. Not everything they do is bad.
I agree not everything they do is bad - it's the power they have to crush their 'competition' from doing any good that I think is bad.
I think, after reading the Noam Chomsky article about the geo-political narritives we believe (this was not healthcare related btw) - it is an absolute miracle the human race is still here and we'd better start broadening our minds to think about anything and everything that can help and stop putting people down for having insightful, intuitive, but untested ideas. Let people dream of good possibilities however crazy! Seriously, we have nothing to lose at this point. Healthcare, and the dangers and benefits actually pales in comparison to other dangers in the world.
I think, after reading the Noam Chomsky article about the geo-political narritives we believe (this was not healthcare related btw) - it is an absolute miracle the human race is still here and we'd better start broadening our minds to think about anything and everything that can help and stop putting people down for having insightful, intuitive, but untested ideas. Let people dream of good possibilities however crazy! Seriously, we have nothing to lose at this point. Healthcare, and the dangers and benefits actually pales in comparison to other dangers in the world.
chansen
Had a point all along
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Quoted because it needs to be repeated to rise above all the noise in this thread.
chansen
Had a point all along
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No one is putting people down for having ideas. Those ideas, when they are proven not to work, are being rightly eviscerated. Until they have been proven to work, they are held with a degree of skepticism. If people are making claims without proof, these claims are held with even more skepticism. This is how it should be.
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
I weigh in on the side of non-medical and ND are scamming people everyday, If they did what they claim they can do, why would any one go to a doctor?
I wouldn't have survived very long either without medical science...but now that I am an adult...I think as long as I feel okay that's pretty much all I want for myself is to feel okay. Like I said I am not at this point too worried that I live to be 90 unless other things in the world get better.
Medical pays for it? And big pharma lobbies government? Did you read the links about their influence?
I think both can be good. But they are in competition and big pharma is more powerful.