Muslims & Christians: Same God?

[BetteTheRed]

...
It can be really difficult in this world of ours that is constantly trying to change us...I know what that is like -- when I went in for a stuttering treatment program, they gave me exercises to maintain it outside of the program, and MAN, was that difficult...everyone SPEAKS SO BLOODY FAST out here! One friend thought I was on some kind of drug I was speaking so slowly and clearly...

Bunch of that is cultural. DO NOT attempt to relate to Australians...

 

[Delightful Life]

Bunch of that is cultural. DO NOT attempt to relate to Australians...

*chuckle*

one of my good friends ended up an Australian -- amazing how quickly his accent changed from Canadian to that unique Aussie one

one of my childhood friends is now an Aussie -- I love it when I get reports on the weather there, she thinks 'cold' is only 25 C LOL

 

[BetteTheRed]

Four is more credible than one.

If I chained you to 3 other people so that your 4 points of view were almost identical, and then you spent a day chained together and then you all had to write about how that day was, do you think everybody would write exactly the same thing?

What if 4 room mates had to write about a day, and they weren't chained together? they would have even less similarity in their story.

What if 4 of your friends wrote about what you have been up to in the last 3 years? Would they all write the same thing?

So, you are arguing for eye and ear witness reports that don't agree, sort of like the witnesses at an auto accident? If we went in with that video camera, we'd hear Jesus of Nazareth saying "I am the way, etc.," in Aramaic? I still think that's extremely unlikely, but I recognize it as a position. Maybe the interesting point is where, if at any points, this leads us to the same conclusion?

 

[Neo]

Neo, if you can reframe Christ Consciousness into a philosophy that doesn't imply that some sort of Christian overlay renders a religion "a-okay", I'd be a bit more on board with this statement. The Compassion Consciousness, perhaps?

The best way I can think of describing "Christ Consciousness" (without the religious overtones) is with words "Universal Consciousness" or "Group Consciousness". Aristotle once said that the "whole is greater than the sum of its parts", and so, in relation to universal consciousness, the Christ (I believe) reached that flash point of awareness where He was aware of the Whole, and not just the individual parts. In this way, 'yes' this could be called "compassion consciousness", because with this realization, (that we are all parts of a common whole whether those parts are aware of it or not), one knows that we should 'love thy neighbour' and even 'our enemies' because they are still part of the great oversoul we call Humanity. There is, for someone like the Christ, no "you and me", there is only "us". This is why He is also known as a "Master of Compassion", one "who loves, suffers with, and remains with His kind and with His kin".

Christ Consciousness has also been called "Soul Consciousness", for the Soul knows no separation and is only aware of the group. Does this make more sense?

 

[Luce NDs]

By convention ... mortals don't gather thoughts conveniently due to differences over the freedom to do everything and thus the deities goosed it out of Eire ... as they appeared too excellent to be part of such a Rifted bunch ...

 

[Luce NDs]

The best way I can think of describing "Christ Consciousness" (without the religious overtones) is with words "Universal Consciousness" or "Group Consciousness". Aristotle once said that the "whole is greater than the sum of its parts", and so, in relation to universal consciousness, the Christ (I believe) reached that flash point of awareness where He was aware of the Whole, and not just the individual parts. In this way, 'yes' this could be called "compassion consciousness", because with this realization, (that we are all parts of a common whole whether those parts are aware of it or not), one knows that we should 'love thy neighbour' and even 'our enemies' because they are still part of the great oversoul we call Humanity. There is, for someone like the Christ, no "you and me", there is only "us". This is why He is also known as a "Master of Compassion", one "who loves, suffers with, and remains with His kind and with His kin".

Christ Consciousness has also been called "Soul Consciousness", for the Soul knows no separation and is only aware of the group. Does this make more sense?

In light of the situation we're in ... are we still in the dark ... absorbent ... becoming whetted?

 

[Neo]

In light of the situation we're in ... are we still in the dark ... absorbent ... becoming whetted?

We are ... learning. Slowly.

 

[Luce NDs]

We are ... learning. Slowly.

Leaves the question when wile they ever ... and thus the dark lady Hur Eve in essence ... darkly balanced so as to receive dreams ... Freudian Conjecture? Virtue all unseen?

 

[Luce NDs]

There has to be A'Moor all towit ...

 

[Neo]

Leaves the question when wile they ever ... and thus the dark lady Hur Eve in essence ... darkly balanced so as to receive dreams ... Freudian Conjecture? Virtue all unseen?

I honestly don't know what you mean by the above, something obscure I'm sure. But the way I see things is like this: Humanity is the "mind" aspect of the Planetary Logos. Which means that we are the means by which God is becoming mentally aware of the physical world. Think about this. We "live and move and have our being" within the body of this Logos, Who in turn 'lives and moves and has It's being' within the Solar Logos, Who is the true God of our system. The physical Sun is but the outermost shell or vehicle through which the Solar Logos express Itself, just as the Earth is the outer shell of the Planetary Logos, and our physical bodies are but the shell or vehicle of the Soul. As above, so below. The Solar Logos in turn is but a great Centre (the heart centre?) in the body of Something even greater, stretching out across space. In this way, as little as we are, we are in our own place co-creators, part and parcel of the Universe. Energy follows thought* and we are "the thinkers" on this planet. It's all about awareness and the evolution of consciousness. That's the real journey we are on.

* "All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him."
- The Buddha

 

[Jaebius]

In Chapter 2 of his book, Volf comments on Nicholas of Cusa, who he says was a profound 15th-century theologian and seminal philosopher who wanted to show that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

According to Volf, Nicholas believed...

1. God is infinite and boundless, not limited in any way.

2. Only God can comprehend and express properly who God is.

3. God is “not said to be one or three or good or wise or Father or Son or Holy Spirit”; God “infinitely excels and precedes all such names.”

Volf notes as Nicholas’ ideas about God’s oneness and God’s triunity...

1. Oneness is prior to all plurality and is a source of all plurality.

2. The ‘three’ that comprise the Trinity are not three discrete entities.

3. In God there is no opposition between “self” and “other.”

4. God is “one” in the sense of “absolute unity” rather than in the sense of a number.

According to Volf, Nicholas’ main points concerning attitudes towards the Trinity...

1. Everything Muslims reject in regard to God as the Holy Trinity (the dividing of the divine essence) Christians reject as well.

2. Everything Christians affirm about the Trinity Muslims ought to affirm as well.

Volf also gives Nicholas’ arguments to suggest that the Trinity is “presupposed” in the Qur’an...

1. Since in the Qur’an God creates through word, the Word is God, and God is the Word with which he creates.

2. Since in the Qur’an Christ is God’s Word, he is God.

Significant aspects of Nicholas’ approach according to Volf...

1. Nicholas offers an alternative to war – argumentative engagement with Muslims.

2. For Nicholas, we deal with competing truth claims by arguing respectfuly.

3. In the battle of ideas, we are interested in truth being embraced by all.

4. We must affirm that God is beyond the comprehension of any human being.

5. We do not need to agree on everything we say about God to agree that we worship the same God.

 

[Seeler]

(This past Wednesday, I was to have facilitated a book presentation in seminary on the book "Allah: A Christian Response" by Miroslav Volf. However, due to a health concern, I was unable to attend the class I was to present it in. Since I'd prepared notes anyway, I thought I might open a dialogue here on the issue at hand. I'll begin with Volf's question which I was planning on opening the class discussion with...)

Volf writes, "…for Christians the question is this: Is the God whose final self-expression is found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ the same God as the God of the Qur’an?” – Location 594 of the Kindle edition.

I've been away from WC2 for a few days and just catching up. I haven't read through the thread yet but I'm answering your opening question.
I can't agree with it. I don't think that for Christians God's final self-expression is found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. I think that God continues to be revealed to us. The Holy Spirit works in us and others. Miracles happen. People see the Light. They are reborn (born again). They gain new insights and understandings. God was and is and will continue to be. And who knows when someone will be inspired by God to reveal something more or deeper about the love of God. final self-expression - NOT!

 

[Luce NDs]

In Chapter 2 of his book, Volf comments on Nicholas of Cusa, who he says was a profound 15th-century theologian and seminal philosopher who wanted to show that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

According to Volf, Nicholas believed...

1. God is infinite and boundless, not limited in any way.

2. Only God can comprehend and express properly who God is.

3. God is “not said to be one or three or good or wise or Father or Son or Holy Spirit”; God “infinitely excels and precedes all such names.”

Volf notes as Nicholas’ ideas about God’s oneness and God’s triunity...

1. Oneness is prior to all plurality and is a source of all plurality.

2. The ‘three’ that comprise the Trinity are not three discrete entities.

3. In God there is no opposition between “self” and “other.”

4. God is “one” in the sense of “absolute unity” rather than in the sense of a number.

According to Volf, Nicholas’ main points concerning attitudes towards the Trinity...

1. Everything Muslims reject in regard to God as the Holy Trinity (the dividing of the divine essence) Christians reject as well.

2. Everything Christians affirm about the Trinity Muslims ought to affirm as well.

Volf also gives Nicholas’ arguments to suggest that the Trinity is “presupposed” in the Qur’an...

1. Since in the Qur’an God creates through word, the Word is God, and God is the Word with which he creates.

2. Since in the Qur’an Christ is God’s Word, he is God.

Significant aspects of Nicholas’ approach according to Volf...

1. Nicholas offers an alternative to war – argumentative engagement with Muslims.

2. For Nicholas, we deal with competing truth claims by arguing respectfuly.

3. In the battle of ideas, we are interested in truth being embraced by all.

4. We must affirm that God is beyond the comprehension of any human being.

5. We do not need to agree on everything we say about God to agree that we worship the same God.

Thus god has agreed to be dissonant ... and that may appear as a media maid ... but maybe not?

 

[Luce NDs]

I've been away from WC2 for a few days and just catching up. I haven't read through the thread yet but I'm answering your opening question.
I can't agree with it. I don't think that for Christians God's final self-expression is found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. I think that God continues to be revealed to us. The Holy Spirit works in us and others. Miracles happen. People see the Light. They are reborn (born again). They gain new insights and understandings. God was and is and will continue to be. And who knows when someone will be inspired by God to reveal something more or deeper about the love of God. final self-expression - NOT!

Thus the light is scattered amongst the darkness that some would suggest is the Shadow ... but that might appear as occult to those conditioned not to see in the dark ... night creatures like Jo-an ... some say "yo-An" as they call out to the street lady in concern about her wisdom of things unspeakable ... enlightened sex?

Thus the story goes on as one source states, aL-ie, as myths were oppressed by mortal authorities ... humans of limited resource? If you can alloy the physical and metaphysical is this the grand mind-body bonding that was lost through a birth caused in an act of great passion where cognizance was lost in a burst of alternate cognizance or in a climax to the story when the pairs became aware of nothing ... an occult grouping when you consider all the humans screwing around with god ... whn ID is something we just don't know as not carnal ... tis out there ... like an out of body episode that some people say do not exist ... thus non existential, or anti-climactic's ... that sometimes affect dysfunctional sects with redundant and rhetorical Miss Pelt thingies ... words unrepeatable to those that haven't yet got their 'syet ... and thus unsettled?

Is the anti climax always here when losing it occurs only at aesthetic times that are sometimes called impacts of ecstasy that authorities would like to contain for themselves (avarice) an thus the reason we are presently all scoo' dupe regarding OBI's?

Do not monarches and tryants outside the demos ... believe they can screw-up anything or anybody at anytime ... and thus the mental state we are in ... whereas you cannot be critical of anytyranny whatsoever under the curse of an OBI that real people of a'lie fear as what cannot happen out there ... the land of pure thought as defined by Webster ... "intellect is beyond all wiles" ... and we are conditioned to believe it is coyote ugly when really chi's a dark hidden booty ... to those outside fixed thoughts!

Is that obtuse of occult to hide the myths in whatever lies we've been told about knowledge and wisdom as a deus abscondia, or in this land of free desire is wisdom just forced out onto the common ways ... streets of Cos Mos ... as he is gone too ... possibly with the God essence ... the oude our of a whoo mon ... that's the time to perform ... depending on what is mutually desired.

There is much consternation over this ... as conflicts in emotional centered ness can occur ... this is sometime referred to as a concern at another time an "an" sometime lasting a thousand dais ... or a fullness in the time to do it ... rites upheld? Sometime a body has to render the mate unconscious to accomplish this particular blackout that baffles great #'s ... "bode an" soles?

If you wish to keep people stirred just send them a communication spelt out in a mixture of ole letters and words archaic stories that might hide myths? This excites some people right to the bones ... that an old adept ... dead as a nit!

 

[Luce NDs]

I honestly don't know what you mean by the above, something obscure I'm sure. But the way I see things is like this: Humanity is the "mind" aspect of the Planetary Logos. Which means that we are the means by which God is becoming mentally aware of the physical world. Think about this. We "live and move and have our being" within the body of this Logos, Who in turn 'lives and moves and has It's being' within the Solar Logos, Who is the true God of our system. The physical Sun is but the outermost shell or vehicle through which the Solar Logos express Itself, just as the Earth is the outer shell of the Planetary Logos, and our physical bodies are but the shell or vehicle of the Soul. As above, so below. The Solar Logos in turn is but a great Centre (the heart centre?) in the body of Something even greater, stretching out across space. In this way, as little as we are, we are in our own place co-creators, part and parcel of the Universe. Energy follows thought* and we are "the thinkers" on this planet. It's all about awareness and the evolution of consciousness. That's the real journey we are on.

* "All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him."
- The Buddha

I apologize to you for the obtuse-ite* ... but in a domain dedicated to ecstasy I find this a dark and alternate place to express myself where people don't really wish the commoners to know. Is that occult, or just be witching Buzz? (white noise?)

Some say there are myths hidden in the smudges of words on a page as des crypt, but due to conditioning people are determined not to know what is unknown or unseen (in the dark) ... so here I must remain as aesthetic creature hidden in the non-cognizant state on the other side of "bode an" soul ... so you must take a turn to get around it .... or over under, beside it whatever. Did you know that beside it is like but not as meta and para ... but in our emotional state this is yet un determined ... some say indeterminate as they don't know in this state ... a cosmological state of confusion in a spread of cosmoslogical intellect ... and yet we still don't know where we come from or where we're at and thus in outright conflict we can't see the point of ontological philology ... the unravelling of the greater story. Only borderlines and fringes can sew this up ...

Did you know that -ite is an alloying power in word that can bind words to the mind? Isn't that just out a here?
​

People like me are said to be like a bale of turtles ... hard right to the bottom to counter the fixated hard shells but we move along in the adepts as everything in the greater pool affects everything else.

You did know the affiliation with water in flowing psyches ... and Christ did look for a drink even if filtered through grapes ... and shock o'late and some red whines in the dark can induce some goings on ...

Some don't see it thisway ... or thy sway ... may be like O' Sean's ~ tide till then ... the great wash continues bi the wa'terres above ... land a Goshen ...

 

[Neo]

I apologize to you for the obtuse-ite* ... but in a domain dedicated to ecstasy I find this a dark and alternate place to express myself where people don't really wish the commoners to know. Is that occult, or just be witching Buzz? (white noise?)

Some say there are myths hidden in the smudges of words on a page as des crypt, but due to conditioning people are determined not to know what is unknown or unseen (in the dark) ... so here I must remain as aesthetic creature hidden in the non-cognizant state on the other side of "bode an" soul ... so you must take a turn to get around it .... or over under, beside it whatever. Did you know that beside it is like but not as meta and para ... but in our emotional state this is yet un determined ... some say indeterminate as they don't know in this state ... a cosmological state of confusion in a spread of cosmoslogical intellect ... and yet we still don't know where we come from or where we're at and thus in outright conflict we can't see the point of ontological philology ... the unravelling of the greater story. Only borderlines and fringes can sew this up ...

Did you know that -ite is an alloying power in word that can bind words to the mind? Isn't that just out a here?
​

People like me are said to be like a bale of turtles ... hard right to the bottom to counter the fixated hard shells but we move along in the adepts as everything in the greater pool affects everything else.

You did know the affiliation with water in flowing psyches ... and Christ did look for a drink even if filtered through grapes ... and shock o'late and some red whines in the dark can induce some goings on ...

Some don't see it thisway ... or thy sway ... may be like O' Sean's ~ tide till then ... the great wash continues bi the wa'terres above ... land a Goshen ...

I find that many people are afraid to go outside their comfort zone, they are just getting used to believing what they believe in are not ready to take leaps of faith into new and (what must seem to them) crazy ideas. I don't believe that we are judged in "what" we believe, but rather in "how" we believe. This is why this thread of whether Muslims and Christians believe in the same God is a moot point to me. If we are Muslim, then we should stay Muslim, if we are Christian then we should continue to be Christian, etc. Religion is a happenstance of where and when we are born. As long as we believe with a sincere heart, an honest mind and healthy detachment from the things of world then we are on the right path. Theology and religion has never saved a single soul, unless it has led them to sincerity, honesty and detachment of the spirit, mind and body. These are the things that expand our awareness and lead us forward in evolution.

 

[Luce NDs]

I find that many people are afraid to go outside their comfort zone, they are just getting used to believing what they believe in are not ready to take leaps of faith into new and (what must seem to them) crazy ideas. I don't believe that we are judged in "what" we believe, but rather in "how" we believe. This is why this thread of whether Muslims and Christians believe in the same God is a moot point to me. If we are Muslim, then we should stay Muslim, if we are Christian then we should continue to be Christian, etc, religion is a happenstance of where and when we are born. As long as we believe with a sincere heart, an honest mind and healthy detachment from the things of world then we are on the right path. Theology and religion has never saved a single soul, unless it has led them to sincerity, honesty and detachment of the spirit, mind and body. These are the things that expand our awareness and lead us forward in evolution.

Then what if Muslim is a fine cotton fabric ... if you can cotton to such a fabrication that may be easily uncovered in a whetting ... rye T-shirt parties? All they need is a dunking to show of the booty that some are hesitant to uncover. How will these people get along in heaven if the soul is required to bare itself?

So many alien things to look into it would take a veritable long time ... some believe they know eternal things now ... and some mates are unhappy that they can't teach the other mate anything ... thus stale mates! Can you imagine?

 

[Jaebius]

In Chapter 3 of his book, Volf discusses views of Martin Luther.

In Luther’s view, Volf asserts, Muslims worship the one true God, the wise and just creator of heaven and earth, and they often display enviable moral qualities. Volf adds that Luther was aware that these qualities provided religious and moral underpinnings to a highly successful Muslim civilization, the Turks.

Luther, Volf notes, affirmed that Muslims believe God is the Almighty Lord of All, who has created all men and given them the law according to which they are to live.

Luther also, Volf adds, said that Turks boast “that God is merciful” and said that they know “something of the grace of God.”

According to Volf, Luther maintained consistently that that there is a great deal of commonality between Muslim and Christian views of God.

Today, Volf challenges his reader, we need to pick up the relationship between the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur’an afresh.

Volf offers three sets of questions about this relationship that he sees as especially important today...

1. How do we decide whether the two, though partly different in character, are the same God?
2. What do we do with different understandings of God’s nature – with the Christian affirmations that God is the Holy Trinity and that God is love and the Muslim denial of or hesitation about these claims?
3. What difference does the claim that Muslims and Christians have a common God make in their daily encounters with one another?

 

[Neo]

Then what if Muslim is a fine cotton fabric ... if you can cotton to such a fabrication that may be easily uncovered in a whetting ... rye T-shirt parties? All they need is a dunking to show of the booty that some are hesitant to uncover. How will these people get along in heaven if the soul is required to bare itself?

All religions have their good aspects and their bad. Christianity is hardly an exception, as witnessed by the extremist Christians in the southern US for instance. How will these people get to heaven and get along with each other without revealing the soul? Well, they don't. And neither would we. It's the soul aspect of our being that lives forever, and it's the soul aspect of our being that is group conscious. It's only when this "soul/mediator/christ" aspect between spirit and matter is the prime focus in our lives will the body become free of disease and decay. With energy you can alter energy, therefore a free flow of spiritual energy via the soul can literally create miracles, such as manifesting material things or raising the dead. Christ became fully aware and therefore spiritualized matter on the cross when He sacrificed the will of the lower personal self (of body, emotion and lower mind) for the will of His Higher Self, His God-Self, His Father in Heaven. This was the miracle when the body disappeared from the cave (of matter) and Mary saw Him once again after the resurrection. It's one the great secrets of Easter.

 

[GeoFee]

"I find that many people are afraid to go outside their comfort zone, they are just getting used to believing what they believe in are not ready to take leaps of faith into new and (what must seem to them) crazy ideas. I don't believe that we are judged in "what" we believe, but rather in "how" we believe. " Neo

Nicely noticed. My experience suggests that many who "correctly believe in Jesus" would refuse him should they meet along the way. Some would support his arrest and termination as a "threat to national security".

Plato noticed that writing might be more of a hindrance than a help. Those who confuse scriptural memory with the living word inspiring those scriptures well exemplify what Plato points to.

As I walk along the opening way I hear many voices, from the doorways of many temples, calling me to enter the place of the one true scripture of the one true God. Age is teaching me to kindly smile as I politely decline. The one true God has need of neither scripture or temple.

The one true God is the living light which shines at the heart of each and all human being. Now we are seen as stars brightening the dark night sky. Soon we shall be seen as the first light of a breaking new day.

Who will be most harmed by the approaching new creation? Those who manufacture diversions and distractions by which people and places are exploited and polluted? Chief among them will be those who make billions by the promotion and prosecution of war. Not far behind are those who endorse the enterprise by benediction and doxologocal affirmation.

Anon....

George