Muslims & Christians: Same God?

[Neo]

Seems to me that reading the Bible and understanding the Bible are two different things. Most understandings of the Bible are based on and are coloured by theology.

 

[GeoFee]

This language is the house of my being, a place of transformation resisting any and all coercive means for the obtaining of compliance and conformity.

Appreciatively remembering Mordecai in the time of Haman.

George

 

[Neo]

I believe if you look up on the top of there mosque you will see the Crescent Moon and star . which is the sign of baal the god of the moon with a star .this may help.

Allah - the Moon God
The Archaeology of the Middle East
The religion of Islam has as its focus of worship a deity by the name of "Allah." The Muslims claim that Allah in pre-Islamic times was the biblical God of the Patriarchs, prophets, and apostles. The issue is thus one of continuity. Was "Allah" the biblical God or a pagan god in Arabia during pre-Islamic times? The Muslim's claim of continuity is essential to their attempt to convert Jews and Christians for if "Allah" is part of the flow of divine revelation in Scripture, then it is the next step in biblical religion. Thus we should all become Muslims. But, on the other hand, if Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan deity, then its core claim is refuted. Religious claims often fall before the results of hard sciences such as archeology. We can endlessly speculate about the past or go and dig it up and see what the evidence reveals. This is the only way to find out the truth concerning the origins of Allah. As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.

I'm curious. what makes the image of the crescent moon and a star so pagan when compared to say the image of a woman who is "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head"?

 

[GordW]

Seems to me that reading the Bible and understanding the Bible are two different things. Most understandings of the Bible are based on and are coloured by theology.

I would say ALL understandings of any text (sacred or profane) are coloured by theology as well as the context in which we grew up and the way we have been taught and ....

 

[blackbelt1961]

.

 

[Neo]

I would say ALL understandings of any text (sacred or profane) are coloured by theology as well as the context in which we grew up and the way we have been taught and ....

Exactly! Our religions, beliefs or non-beliefs are a result of where and when we are born. This is why I can never believe that 'only good little new born Christians' will be the only ones to inherit the new kingdom of spirit. The idea is preposterous.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Relativists like to pretend they have the power define their own reality.

 

[Delightful Life]

Relativists like to pretend they have the power define their own reality.

If you are writing that if one doesn't believe in your g_d, they are relativists, then again that is your prerogative, but doesn't automatically apply to everyone else (that would be making up your own definition and more power to you to get other people to follow it)

If you want to call the Law of Identity, Non-contradiction & the Excluded Middle 'g_d' than that's your prerogative

There are people who believe in absolutes (like the Law of Identity etc) and who don't believe in your g_d

Mixing up statements of art & science here: if your g_d existed, they'd have to follow the Law of Identity etc -- they couldn't make a rock that they couldn't lift

Your g_d would be subject to absolutes

Again, this is what happens when we confuse the problems that occur with language with real problems that exist outside of ourselves

I agree though that there is a thought or BS that is very problematic, postmoderinism, a kind of nihilism that nothing is real or there is no meaning or truth...I think that is more accurate to what you are trying to write, there?

Everything is relative to everything else -- everything exists in relation to something else -- 'causeless causes' are the minority in reality imho -- and even causeless causes, if they can affect reality, are related to other things...otherwise, they can't have an affect on reality...oh oh, stupid philosophy...i can even prove i don't have a head with philosophy & logic...

And so it goes...

 

[Delightful Life]

Besides the 'reality' that our worldview 'creates', it is looking like we actually have influence over reality itself

Scientists have and are investigating just how deep that goes

We have done, with experiements, created a simple computer that does a calculation WITHOUT DOING A CALCULATION...that's mind blowing

And we have discovered that we can slow down and stop radioactive decay BY OBSERVING IT -- that shouldn't be possible -- radioactive decay is one of the few 'causless causes' that we have identified

There are also the whole 'psi' phenomenon -- remote viewing, telepathy, seeing the future...which I understand why religious & secular authorities would make a blasphemy -- because it gives so much power to ordinary, untrained people (the biggest and most powerful religion of all being the State)

Reality is how reality is & common sense is a BAD indicator or tool to use to investigate it (insert Einstein quote aboot common sense being learned prejudice)

It is an interesting time to be alive

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

No, I am saying that if Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life. That may be a true statement or that may be a false statement.

I accept that statement as true. I may be wrong.

Saying that Jesus meant that he is not the way the truth and the life, is not a reasonable and equal interpretation of Jesus statement.

If Neo finds himself with a gun six inches from his head and the trigger is pulled, imagining you can stop a bullet like in the matrix will not change the physics of reality.

Real is real.

 

[BetteTheRed]

But PG-13, you're working from the "assumption" that the gospels are meant to be eye and ear witness recordings of Jesus' ministry. If that was the case, there would not be so many contradictions between them. To look the way you're advising us to look is to incorporate the assumption that if someone could travel back in time with a recording device, they could literally HEAR a person named Jesus of Nazareth say (although I'm going to assume he said it in Aramaic, not Greek) something that could be word-for-word translated into contemporary English "I am the way, the truth and the life".

That sounds more like "a real stretch" than reality to me.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

If you were a mailman, and interpreted addresses any way you wanted, you'd be fired in one day but when it comes to interpreting the bible, one has free reign to pretend it says whatever they want, at least among relativists.

Because they think they would prefer the God they make up to the one that is. And if I get to make it up, it is only fair that everybody should.

So the only God that is not acceptable, is the one that has revealed himself.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

But PG-13, you're working from the "assumption" that the gospels are meant to be eye and ear witness recordings of Jesus' ministry. If that was the case, there would not be so many contradictions between them. To look the way you're advising us to look is to incorporate the assumption that if someone could travel back in time with a recording device, they could literally HEAR a person named Jesus of Nazareth say (although I'm going to assume he said it in Aramaic, not Greek) something that could be word-for-word translated into contemporary English "I am the way, the truth and the life".

That sounds more like "a real stretch" than reality to me.

It's true, or it isn't. Believe it or not. But don't make up a bunch of different ridiculous interpretations that have no basis in truth. Words convey meaning. I get what you said. I know you don`t agree with me.

 

[Neo]

No, I am saying that if Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life. That may be a true statement or that may be a false statement.

I accept that statement as true. I may be wrong.

Saying that Jesus meant that he is not the way the truth and the life, is not a reasonable and equal interpretation of Jesus statement.

If Neo finds himself with a gun six inches from his head and the trigger is pulled, imagining you can stop a bullet like in the matrix will not change the physics of reality.

Real is real.

Christ said "I am the way". He didn't say "Christianity is the way". Do you see the difference? In other words, I don't believe that the religion called Christianity has a monopoly on the Christ. The latter stands above all religions. Christ is a world Teacher, not a religious teacher. I see the Christ Consciousness as something that all religions strive for, regardless of their nomenclature.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Christ said "I am the way". He didn't say "Christianity is the way". Do you see the difference? In other words, I don't believe that the religion called Christianity has a monopoly on the Christ. The latter stands above all religions. Christ is a world Teacher, not a religious teacher. I see the Christ Consciousness as something that all religions strive for, regardless of their nomenclature.

Neo, if you can reframe Christ Consciousness into a philosophy that doesn't imply that some sort of Christian overlay renders a religion "a-okay", I'd be a bit more on board with this statement. The Compassion Consciousness, perhaps?

 

[BetteTheRed]

It's true, or it isn't. Believe it or not. But don't make up a bunch of different ridiculous interpretations that have no basis in truth. Words convey meaning. I get what you said. I know you don`t agree with me.

I don't agree with you, PG, because the logic escapes me. If we had just one gospel, you'd have a leg to stand on; we don't - we have FOUR.

 

[Luce NDs]

All g_ds are pagan, its just that for sombunall people, 'pagan' is a swear word for a blasphemous concept
For sombunall people, 'pagan' is a virtue or a blessing

One of my favourite commentaries on the OT is a comic series by Douglas Rushkoff called Testament -- one of the things it has fun with is during the binding of Isaac, that it was Ba'al who wanted the sacrifice (Douglas thought what culture was Abraham a part of and what g_ds was he likely to worship, which ones needed human sacrifice atop high places? Bam, Ba'al) and that it was a story meant to show that the 'new' g_d was stronger than the old g_d (Ba'al)

Another of my favourites is Nina Paley, who has done brilliant animations on certain stories in the OT (I love her retelling of the Golden Calf scene as a battle between the old, matriarchal faith and the new paternalistic faith that murders them all...go MOSES!!!)

Narratives are powerful

Metaphors are powerful too they allow for pagans that are common ... at least down here in the oppressed pits of humanity ... as walked over without sight by blind powers ...

 

[Delightful Life]

No, I am saying that if Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life. That may be a true statement or that may be a false statement.

Not if its an artistic statement?

Art is where we determine meaning, not Truth imho.

That statement could also mean that what Jesus is saying that everything Jesus does is the Way to g_d, which is all of humanity acting in harmony with each other & reality.

I accept that statement as true. I may be wrong.

And that is totally cool -- that you may be wrong, I wish more people the power and character to be able to live like that.

If Neo finds himself with a gun six inches from his head and the trigger is pulled, imagining you can stop a bullet like in the matrix will not change the physics of reality.

Again, equating something empirical like that with the art of the Bibble is comparing apples & oranges?

You take the existence of your g_d on faith/you KNOW -- and that is cool. There is no reason for you to try to prove his existence -- the important thing, imho, is that you gain deep meaning and from there purpose from the whole shebang and that you'll continue to, no matter what happens to you (even if you don't end up in Heaven or even end up in Hell or don't even end up anywhere). That takes a lot of chutzpah and character.

It can be really difficult in this world of ours that is constantly trying to change us...I know what that is like -- when I went in for a stuttering treatment program, they gave me exercises to maintain it outside of the program, and MAN, was that difficult...everyone SPEAKS SO BLOODY FAST out here! One friend thought I was on some kind of drug I was speaking so slowly and clearly...

I'm not saying you should change -- you probably can't, because you don't have free will -- you came to this important decision not by rationality, but by other, more powerful means that you had no control over imho and now, long after the fact, you can try to come up with narratives & rationalizations as to why you believe how you believe...

That's one of the reasons why we can't convert each other -- we can just offer our experiences and then it is up to the person (mostly unconsciously) to 'decide'...

And bless you for providing a counterpoint & your experiences & trying to dehorrify & detoxify Christianity -- it can be a beautiful BS & I'm glad there continue to be advocates for it

 

[Luce NDs]

ART is creationism and thus the fixated don't allow it ... or with exceptions if they think if valued ...

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

I don't agree with you, PG, because the logic escapes me. If we had just one gospel, you'd have a leg to stand on; we don't - we have FOUR.

Four is more credible than one.

If I chained you to 3 other people so that your 4 points of view were almost identical, and then you spent a day chained together and then you all had to write about how that day was, do you think everybody would write exactly the same thing?

What if 4 room mates had to write about a day, and they weren't chained together? they would have even less similarity in their story.

What if 4 of your friends wrote about what you have been up to in the last 3 years? Would they all write the same thing?