It's only fear-based if the goats don't want to go there.
Who Inhabited the World First? Satan or Humans?
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It's only fear-based if the goats don't want to go there.
chansen
Had a point all along
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The only reason you say it's not fear-based is you present your targets a way out. If they only shut off their brains and believe like you, then they have nothing to be afraid of, according to your biblical interpretation.
Saying it's not fear-based because you gave them a choice does not make it not-fear-based. It makes it extortion. And fear-based.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
unsafe says ---
We were all goats at one time BetteTheRed -----some of us chose to become sheep -----all goats have the same choice ----the goats that choose not to become sheep have made their own choice to stay on the left side -----if fear is in the goat ---then the goat has created their own fear by their own choice ----any goat that blames their fear on others who have chosen to become sheep or blames God for their own choice to remain a goat in my view is a coward and doesn't want to take the responsibility for there own decision --which is to reject the sheep side and remain on the goat side ----
there are 2 sides ---we can say ----------------------------------------Or we can say I didn't make myself a Goat to be in fear --it's all
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We were all goats at one time BetteTheRed -----some of us chose to become sheep -----all goats have the same choice ----the goats that choose not to become sheep have made their own choice to stay on the left side -----if fear is in the goat ---then the goat has created their own fear by their own choice ----any goat that blames their fear on others who have chosen to become sheep or blames God for their own choice to remain a goat in my view is a coward and doesn't want to take the responsibility for there own decision --which is to reject the sheep side and remain on the goat side ----
there are 2 sides ---we can say ----------------------------------------Or we can say I didn't make myself a Goat to be in fear --it's all
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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That's not what the text says, though, unsafe.
It says that anyone who looks after a person in need is a sheep, and that anyone who ignores a person in need is a goat. Not a belief choice, but a behaviour choice.
But the bottom line is that your theology says "if you are judged as a goat, you will go to hell". Hell is a place of eternal punishment, which if one believed in it, would certainly be a threat. If you believe because of fear of what will happen if you don't, how is this not fear-based?
It says that anyone who looks after a person in need is a sheep, and that anyone who ignores a person in need is a goat. Not a belief choice, but a behaviour choice.
But the bottom line is that your theology says "if you are judged as a goat, you will go to hell". Hell is a place of eternal punishment, which if one believed in it, would certainly be a threat. If you believe because of fear of what will happen if you don't, how is this not fear-based?
Neo
Well-Known Member
How can there be any discussion about sheep and goats going to heaven or hell until one defines exactly what is meant by sheep and goats? Are sheep characteristics somehow more spiritually advanced than characteristics of a goat? In what way?
I've personally always considered sheep to be rather sheepish among the herd, one blind sheep following the other. While the goat, on the other hand, finds his own way to the top the mountain where the grass is the sweetest. I'm guessing Jesus wasn't thinking this about sheep and goats when he told this allegory as the rest of his ministry spoke of the importance of the cross waiting on the hill and warned us to avoid blindly following leaders.
So again, what did Jesus actually mean by sheep and goats? Perhaps he was just pointing out the simple fact that some will be chosen and some will wait behind, and he used sheep because he also spoke of his "fold" (and "those" outside of his immediate "fold" too). I honestly don't know. It's one of those allegories in the Bible that's always confused me.
I've personally always considered sheep to be rather sheepish among the herd, one blind sheep following the other. While the goat, on the other hand, finds his own way to the top the mountain where the grass is the sweetest. I'm guessing Jesus wasn't thinking this about sheep and goats when he told this allegory as the rest of his ministry spoke of the importance of the cross waiting on the hill and warned us to avoid blindly following leaders.
So again, what did Jesus actually mean by sheep and goats? Perhaps he was just pointing out the simple fact that some will be chosen and some will wait behind, and he used sheep because he also spoke of his "fold" (and "those" outside of his immediate "fold" too). I honestly don't know. It's one of those allegories in the Bible that's always confused me.
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BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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It's an interesting question. I, with my universalist tendencies, tend to lump people in as sheep if they've even once helped someone in need. OTOH, one could legitimately be viewed as a goat if you even once ignored someone in need.
It's not the easiest saying to unpack.
It's not the easiest saying to unpack.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
BetteTheRed -----your quote -----But the bottom line is that your theology says "if you are judged as a goat, you will go to hell". Hell is a place of eternal punishment, which if one believed in it, would certainly be a threat. If you believe because of fear of what will happen if you don't, how is this not fear-based?
unsafe says ----big cop out here BetteTheRed ---your just playing pass the buck --which say I can't handle my choice so I will blame theology ---
the·ol·o·gy
noun
We choose our path God doesn't --He gave us choice -----be a goat or be a sleep ----stay with fear or give fear over to Love ----there is no fear in love ---Period
Your choice to fear BetteTheRed ----your choice to stay a goat -----theology is a study and has nothing to do with your choice -----you study to know God and His truth then YOU make the decision to believe it or reject it ------Your Choice ----
unsafe says ----big cop out here BetteTheRed ---your just playing pass the buck --which say I can't handle my choice so I will blame theology ---
the·ol·o·gy
noun
- the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
We choose our path God doesn't --He gave us choice -----be a goat or be a sleep ----stay with fear or give fear over to Love ----there is no fear in love ---Period
Your choice to fear BetteTheRed ----your choice to stay a goat -----theology is a study and has nothing to do with your choice -----you study to know God and His truth then YOU make the decision to believe it or reject it ------Your Choice ----
Neo
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I get this reference...
chansen
Had a point all along
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Yes, but you chose an extortionist God. Your God is like the patron saint of organized crime.
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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Montreal Oct 7, 1969
Police went on strike 4 just 16 hours
Guess what happened?
1969: Montreal’s ‘night of terror’ - CBC Archives
Police went on strike 4 just 16 hours
Guess what happened?
1969: Montreal’s ‘night of terror’ - CBC Archives
Does wisdom require some questioning and study of strange books?
What if the extortionists don't even study their own book from different perspectives than taking everything from the other sheep and goats that can't be in heaven (so many theologians say animals don't have souls). If solu is an incarnation of ethereals non-substance ... would that open a hole in the fabrications? Room ... fore thought ... outside thinking at the present rate of being stuck for conservative answers?
Some alteration must be required to provide rapture in the consistent fogs ...
What if the extortionists don't even study their own book from different perspectives than taking everything from the other sheep and goats that can't be in heaven (so many theologians say animals don't have souls). If solu is an incarnation of ethereals non-substance ... would that open a hole in the fabrications? Room ... fore thought ... outside thinking at the present rate of being stuck for conservative answers?
Some alteration must be required to provide rapture in the consistent fogs ...
chansen
Had a point all along
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You think a coma is the beginning of wisdom.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
BetteTheRed -------your quote -----It says that anyone who looks after a person in need is a sheep, and that anyone who ignores a person in need is a goat. Not a belief choice, but a behaviour choice.
Not anymore BetteTheRed -----Jesus fulfilled the law ----it is not about works now for a goat to become a sheep -----it becomes a personal choice to accept what Jesus did for you as well as for all people ----You are slapping God in the Face here with your statement here ----- It says that anyone who looks after a person in need is a sheep, and that anyone who ignores a person in need is a goat.
Jesus died a terrible death ---He was punched --kicked ---beaten ----spit on ---had his skin ripped off with a cat in nine tails -----He was unrecognisable ----and He did all this for you BetteTheRed and you have the nerve to say that that works makes your a sheep or goat ------
Jesus died so all people could become Sheep if they want to ------if you decide to reject Jesus free offer to you that is your own choice ----take the responsibility for what you yourself choose to believe don't blame other -----
We remain Goats and on a path of personal destruction because we ourselves have rejected Jesus and His free offer ----and if we reject Jesus we have rejected God ---Jesus is God and we have rejected His word cause Jesus is the word -----The word became flesh scripture says -----
We human want our cake and eat it to -----we want to reject Jesus who died for us ----we want to live our lives in sin ----we want to pick our own god and religion and live as the world says -----and we expect God to open His Gates to His Holy Place and allow all our dirty laundry that we chose to keep on both inside and out to reside in a righteous ---holy ---sinless kingdom and be accepted as though we are a righteous --holy people because God is a God of Love and has no problem with how we live our lives ------
Love works both ways BetteTheRed -----to Love God is to accept His Son and believe His word and obey His word -----Period ----
You can't say I love my spouse and then run around behind the spouses back doing all kinds of devious things and expect that all will be well in the household -----our bad choices and actions have bad consequences -----and the spouse may very well put the devious spouse out and lock the door ----leaving the devious spouse out in the cold to deal with their devious selves and actions -----
For the unbeliever Fear of the Lord is fear of God's judgment ------
For the believer Fear of the Lord is to reverence and be in awe of God -----believing in His word and doing what pleases Him
I leave you with this scripture ----Note---I did not write it ---God did any complaints ---take them to God Not me ----
Not anymore BetteTheRed -----Jesus fulfilled the law ----it is not about works now for a goat to become a sheep -----it becomes a personal choice to accept what Jesus did for you as well as for all people ----You are slapping God in the Face here with your statement here ----- It says that anyone who looks after a person in need is a sheep, and that anyone who ignores a person in need is a goat.
Jesus died a terrible death ---He was punched --kicked ---beaten ----spit on ---had his skin ripped off with a cat in nine tails -----He was unrecognisable ----and He did all this for you BetteTheRed and you have the nerve to say that that works makes your a sheep or goat ------
Jesus died so all people could become Sheep if they want to ------if you decide to reject Jesus free offer to you that is your own choice ----take the responsibility for what you yourself choose to believe don't blame other -----
We remain Goats and on a path of personal destruction because we ourselves have rejected Jesus and His free offer ----and if we reject Jesus we have rejected God ---Jesus is God and we have rejected His word cause Jesus is the word -----The word became flesh scripture says -----
We human want our cake and eat it to -----we want to reject Jesus who died for us ----we want to live our lives in sin ----we want to pick our own god and religion and live as the world says -----and we expect God to open His Gates to His Holy Place and allow all our dirty laundry that we chose to keep on both inside and out to reside in a righteous ---holy ---sinless kingdom and be accepted as though we are a righteous --holy people because God is a God of Love and has no problem with how we live our lives ------
Love works both ways BetteTheRed -----to Love God is to accept His Son and believe His word and obey His word -----Period ----
You can't say I love my spouse and then run around behind the spouses back doing all kinds of devious things and expect that all will be well in the household -----our bad choices and actions have bad consequences -----and the spouse may very well put the devious spouse out and lock the door ----leaving the devious spouse out in the cold to deal with their devious selves and actions -----
For the unbeliever Fear of the Lord is fear of God's judgment ------
For the believer Fear of the Lord is to reverence and be in awe of God -----believing in His word and doing what pleases Him
I leave you with this scripture ----Note---I did not write it ---God did any complaints ---take them to God Not me ----
chansen
Had a point all along
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I honestly don't care what it says. The concept that arbitrary belief is more important to your God than positive actions is reprehensible.
"Fear isn't working! Try guilt!"
"Back to fear!"
We claim the freedom to choose our own paths and own beliefs based on what we find credible and good. I find what you promote to be neither credible, nor good. You want to highlight differences and claim suffering for all those who don't agree with you. I say we're likely all in the same boat with the same end game and having to listen to your bulls**t in the interim is to suffer.
I missed the Period.
This metaphor doesn't apply to be because I'm not in your polygamous marriage to Jesus. You want to force this marriage on me. Through people like you, Jesus is stalking me.
"More fear! Pile on more fear!"
"Now extortion!"
The big picture here is that you are selling the prescription for the thing that you diagnosed us all with. It is you and your religion that have the cure, but it is also you and your religion that insist we are diseased.I leave you with this scripture ----Note---I did not write it ---God did any complaints ---take them to God Not me ----
We are imperfect, but we never claimed to be. Your religion is flawed, but you won't accept that. You even reject that being a giving person will curry favour with God, and that what God really wants is my faith. I don't have faith in any god, and more importantly, I don't respect the God you insist upon us. That you come with zero reason to believe makes you like any other religious huckster. That you think anyone would buy into such a monumental jerk of a God, based on fear, guilt and grammatically-laughable insistence, makes your pitch light entertainment.
Neo
Well-Known Member
This is an excellent point for it portrays Jesus as a narcissists looking for nothing but devotion. I'm pretty sure this not the case. Jesus' own words in His 11th commandment says the most important thing people can do now is to "love one another". In doing so we then, whether consciously or not, love Him.
BetteTheRed
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Which is exactly what the parable of the sheep and goats does. Whether chansen wants to, or not, when he loves his wife, he loves Jesus. When I look after my child's needs, I love Jesus.
Where it gets more difficult is 'loving' people that you dislike, or who have hurt you. Which is where this becomes an action story, I think. Whenever I DO something to meet someone's needs, for food, shelter, love, companionship, clothing, etc., I have done it for Jesus. Wherever, I ignore my neighbours' needs, I have failed Jesus.
No, actually that's your perspective. You keep yourself in a myopic carefully insulated coma, when it comes to reading books that challenge your perspective. You have been repeatedly told that a loving God is willing to confirm His existence by direct mystical experience, and yet, you are unwilling to explore that possibility.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" precisely because God (if there is a God) represents a higher order of reality than human consciousness. Or as God puts it in Isaiah 55:7-8, "As far as the heavens are above the earth are my ways above your ways and my thoughts abo e your thoughts." Consider this humble analogy: Chickens don't know that we raise them simply to eat them and their eggs. They lay eggs because their instincts drive them to reproduce and bear young. But we think nothing of using them in this way because we are a higher order of being and most of us are carnivores. So why should God care about us, and ours? Best to ignore God, lower our heads, and peck at chicken feed, right? Or w we can explore the possibility of a different relationship with our Creator than we have with an indifferent and valueless universe.
But how might we do that? Well, to begin with, we might consider our ignorance of how we fit into the Big Picture. The thought that we might be displeasing God by how we live might fill us with dread or fear. Does that mean that God is extorting our devotion? Of course not. But what if God's question is, "How badly do you want a relationship with me, your Creator?" We can deny God by demanding proof and He might discard us in favor of more receptive options. Or we can pursue the intuitive certitude that results from a direct mystical loving encounter. Either way we get to experience the emotional fruit of our decision.