Who Inhabited the World First? Satan or Humans?

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BetteTheRed --------your quote -----I'm a bit confused about this, unsafe. Are you saying that when I perform an act of agape love, in other words, perform a loving action to meet the needs of a person who probably will not "pay me back" in any sort of kind, that the act is less "agape" because I believe differently than you?

I am saying that scripture says BetteTheRed not me I didn't write the Bible God did -----that if a person who is not indwelled with the Holy Spirit they are according to scripture a Goat -----


Your statement here -------when I perform an act of agape love ---- to meet the needs of a person who probably will not "pay me back" in any sort of kind, that the act is less "agape" because I believe differently than you?

Agape is a Fruit of the Spirit----so if a person has not the Holy Spirit they cannot and do not serve with Agape ----Agape is the highest form of Love and will never fail -----Agape has no conditions attached to it -----

and here you say -------if I meet the needs and Probably they won't pay you back ----this word Probably to me says that you hope for something back at some point --- There is no Probably in Agape -----Agape needs no reward ----


Agape is not how the other person treats you it is all about how you treat them even when they don't treat you well -----and we expect nothing in return we do it out of our Love for God ---we are moved by the Holy Spirit to help ----not because society and religion says that it is good to help others -----The Help True Christ-ians give is God driven so God get the credit ----NOT Self Driven -----If we do not have God in us we are not serving others for God --we are away from God according to His Word BetteTheRed ---


No human will or can consistently on their own power --love (that which is driven by our emotions ) the unlovely or their enemy all the time ---- Only Agape is capable of doing that and that kind of Love takes much practice and understanding that there is an enemy loose who wants us to fail ----we have to call on God's Grace to help us remain in Agape all the time -----The Holy Spirit gives us the Power to stay in Agape ----

What I call Human love can fail -----and has many conditions attached to it ---if one does not have the Holy Spirit to help in our time of need we serve others at best with this love ----this love has to do with our emotion and is directed by that ------ it is self driven by how we feel -----


So your quote here BetteTheRed ------Are you saying that when I perform an act of agape love, in any sort of kind, that the act is less "agape" because I believe differently than you?


No --it has nothing to do with what you believe differently ----You either have God in you or you don't ----It has all to do with Producing the right Fruit and Giving God the Glory for us being able to help and serve who the Holy Spirit directs us to help ---by and through the Holy Spirit not our own selves -----We Humans are self serving our own ego and emotions by helping others on our own power ----


If we humans think that we are all powerful all by our selves and don't need God to direct us in our efforts to help Other by and through The Holy Spirit we are showing that we are arrogant and self centred and think we are bigger than God in my opinion ----and by this we are only fooling ourselves --

We have to stop throwing this word Agape around like it is simply worldly Love ---It is a love that is powered by and through us having the Holy Spirit indwelling in us ----It is God's Love not Human love -----
 
@unsafe, do you think that someone being helped by another human being cares where that love came from? And if love isn't from God, where else would love come from?
 
BetteTheRed said:
Couple of observations:

1) The word "fear" as in "the fear of the Lord", might better be translated as "awe". Makes a huge difference.

Only the nuance "awe" or "reverence" of the Hebrew "yirah" does not nullify the basic meaning "fear" as you assume. Indeed, in the NT "yireh" is translated "phobos" (= "fear") and Gentiles who worship the God of the Jews are called "God-fearers." The early church was said to be built up in the "fear of the Lord" (Acts 9:31). Paul even speaks of the "fear of Christ" in Ephesians 5:21. Beyond that, Jesus taught that fear plays in important role in the life of faith: "Do not fear those who kill the body and can do nothing more. But I will tell you who to fear: fear him who,,,has the authority to cast into Hell (Luke 12:3-4)." Bette, you really need to know what you're talking about before you post your pontifications.

2) "From a pastoral POV, you'll notice that the "real" pastors on this site don't use words like "hissy fit" and "ignorance" in their conversations with real humans. You seem to be into that sort of put down."

First, I am more than a pastor; for many years I was a Theology professor who trained pastors and, unlike you, I actually knows both Hebrew and Aramaic.
Second, when faced with closed-minded bigotry like Chansen's, Jesus called people "a generation of vipers" and "hypocrites!" So my use of "ignorance" and "hissyfit" is in good company. Of course, none of this would happen if this board was properly moderated. Given that it;s not, I'm not going to ignore Craig's mindless ad hominems.

3) From life experience dealing the late stage kidney disease sufferers, the amounts of toxin in their system often seem to make them irrational, and probably deeply susceptible to "hope of heaven" talk. You may wish to downplay this one of your "miracles"

First, I've never called my relationship with Dave, his kidney failure, and his dlalysis a "miracle."
Second, Dave and his non-Christian family are eager for my intervention due to the positive impact.
Click to expand...
 
Waterfall ------your quote ----do you think that someone being helped by another human being cares where that love came from? And if love isn't from God, where else would love come from?

This is my view

Love comes from God --------Agape is the greatest and is the fruit of the Spirit -----Philia is the general brotherly love that we all have -----

Philia (/ˈfɪljə/ or /ˈfɪliə/; Ancient Greek: φιλία), often translated "brotherly love",

Your question here ---------do you think that someone being helped by another human being cares where that love came from ---

In my view I say depends on the person who needs the help a true believer or a non believer ------the non believer wouldn't care --the true believer might care ---this I am sure of ---God cares and God matters when it comes to helping others ---this is verse 16 from scripture posted below and James 2-----

16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.



Also James says this ----so we see here that the body is dead without the spirit ---so our works are dead works without The Spirit in us ---we are gratifying self ---

James 2 --KJV
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also.


Here is the thing though -----if we just go to help someone on our own accord we just might get fooled and have the door slammed in our face or the person may feel embarrassed or they may not want the help ------

All good works are good to do by all Waterfall ----that is really not the issue -----the issue is not all good word produce the right result -----and that is why we do good works is to produce the right result ----if our good works don't produce the right result what good is the help -----

God created us to Glorify Him through our good works not ourselves ----it is not about us shining with our good works -----it is about Glorifying God ---So God cares and so should we ---The Holy Spirit knows who to direct us to and what is needed to help and will equip us with the right tools to help ----and the help will produce the right result ----


Matthew 5:13-16 (ESV)
Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Serving others should be done in my view from a pure heart ---a clear conscious and a sincere faith and that flows from Agape --God's love ---not Philia ---brotherly love
 
Hi,

A story rooted in memory comes to mind. Smart fella. Top of his class. All the awards. All the achievements. These well invested to secure a prominent place as a remarkable fella. Head and shoulders above all around.

This fella felt he had a responsibility to God. Everyone was looking to him for direction. So he got on his high horse and set out to round up or silence those speaking and acting in the name of an itinerant rabbi. A rather despicable person from the high and holy point of view. A person unreserved in determination to include the excluded in the love of God.

High horse personalities are tending for a fall.

Saul was as well credentialed as any in Israel. But he missed the point completely. God requires no religious insight or observance. God requires mercy, justice and humility. A Samaritan makes manifest the compassionate love of God along his way. That way was also travelled by a Priest and a Levite devoted to temple observance. Guided by a clear and mandatory reading of the ancient priestly narratives. A reading explicated by Ezra and Nehemiah as the pattern for covenant loyalty. No Samaritans allowed!

Saul finally fell from his high horse. Light flooded his deep darkness. Risen as Paul he considered all his credentials and merits equivalent to dung.

Is it not written: "Whoever loves is born of God and knows God"?

No temple economy required! No learned teachers or interpreters of the text. Simple compassion revealing God's grace in the experience of a neighbour.

George
 
phobos doesn't work at all with the concept of Godde, though. What one fears, one avoids, right? Like spiders, or heights.

I can distinguish between awe (how I feel about Creation, and its wonders) and fear (how I feel about perceived threats to me or those close to me).
 
BetteTheRed said:
phobos doesn't work at all with the concept of Godde, though. What one fears, one avoids, right? Like spiders, or heights.

I can distinguish between awe (how I feel about Creation, and its wonders) and fear (how I feel about perceived threats to me or those close to me).
Click to expand...

No, neither you nor George grasps how God actually works. God meets us where we are and many spiritually immature people respond to fear when appeals to God's love just bore them. No one in my life was a more loving Christian than my Dad. Yet as he made clear to me, he first became a Christian out of fear of the alternative. And if you study the Great Revivals of history, fear (yes, phobos) was a prime motivator for mass conversions.
 
No, Bette, neither you nor George grasps how God actually works. God meets us where we are and many spiritually immature people respond to fear when appeals to God's love just bore them. No one in my life was a more loving Christian than my Dad. Yet as he made clear to me, he first became a Christian out of fear of the alternative. And if you study the Great Revivals of history, fear (yes, phobos) was a prime motivator for mass conversions. Besides, as my last post points out, Jesus taught the value of fear for motivating true discipleship.
 
I was struck by Peter Hitchens' (yes, Christopher Hitchen'z bro) conversion, he can place the moment when he saw a particular bit of art (which he talks aboot at 4:44)
As an apertif
 
BetteTheRed -------your quote ----phobos doesn't work at all with the concept of Godde, though. What one fears, one avoids, right? Like spiders, or heights.

God gave us humans the control over all the fish of the sea and over every creepy crawly thing on this earth and over all the animals -----so why do we avoid in fear what we have been given control over ------

Genesis 1:26G (GW)
26 Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, in our likeness. Let them rule the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the domestic animals all over the earth, and all the animals that crawl on the earth.”

Where does the fear of --snakes --spiders----mice --rats ----earwigs ----bears ---lions --sharks ---- etc come from ----the positive or negative
 
GeoFee said:
Hi,

A story rooted in memory comes to mind. Smart fella. Top of his class. All the awards. All the achievements. These well invested to secure a prominent place as a remarkable fella. Head and shoulders above all around.

This fella felt he had a responsibility to God. Everyone was looking to him for direction. So he got on his high horse and set out to round up or silence those speaking and acting in the name of an itinerant rabbi. A rather despicable person from the high and holy point of view. A person unreserved in determination to include the excluded in the love of God.

High horse personalities are tending for a fall.

Saul was as well credentialed as any in Israel. But he missed the point completely. God requires no religious insight or observance. God requires mercy, justice and humility. A Samaritan makes manifest the compassionate love of God along his way. That way was also travelled by a Priest and a Levite devoted to temple observance. Guided by a clear and mandatory reading of the ancient priestly narratives. A reading explicated by Ezra and Nehemiah as the pattern for covenant loyalty. No Samaritans allowed!

Saul finally fell from his high horse. Light flooded his deep darkness. Risen as Paul he considered all his credentials and merits equivalent to dung.

Is it not written: "Whoever loves is born of God and knows God"?

No temple economy required! No learned teachers or interpreters of the text. Simple compassion revealing God's grace in the experience of a neighbour.

George
Click to expand...

Good Une ... a fall s a mighty thing as the blow can cause stars in the dark heart of isolated man ... when they all collect at a point of extreme poverty (regarding reality) a point of virtue of the vanishing? Thus it goes ... replaced by something intangible? Dante's pity ...

Tis allegory for in the domain of lies truth and altruism isn't respected ... doesn't allow success ...
 
BetteTheRed said:
phobos doesn't work at all with the concept of Godde, though. What one fears, one avoids, right? Like spiders, or heights.

I can distinguish between awe (how I feel about Creation, and its wonders) and fear (how I feel about perceived threats to me or those close to me).
Click to expand...

Is there anything more phobic than God ... or should we look at that from the other perspective ... alternate?
 
Mystic said:
No, neither you nor George grasps how God actually works. God meets us where we are and many spiritually immature people respond to fear when appeals to God's love just bore them. No one in my life was a more loving Christian than my Dad. Yet as he made clear to me, he first became a Christian out of fear of the alternative. And if you study the Great Revivals of history, fear (yes, phobos) was a prime motivator for mass conversions.
Click to expand...

Does God because of great phobia reveal itself individually to isolated persons?
 
unsafe said:
BetteTheRed -------your quote ----phobos doesn't work at all with the concept of Godde, though. What one fears, one avoids, right? Like spiders, or heights.

God gave us humans the control over all the fish of the sea and over every creepy crawly thing on this earth and over all the animals -----so why do we avoid in fear what we have been given control over ------

Genesis 1:26G (GW)
26 Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, in our likeness. Let them rule the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the domestic animals all over the earth, and all the animals that crawl on the earth.”

Where does the fear of --snakes --spiders----mice --rats ----earwigs ----bears ---lions --sharks ---- etc come from ----the positive or negative
Click to expand...

Thus we learn what control can do to corrupt nature and cause fulminations ... from those of avarice ... base amis?
 
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