What is the purpose of Sunday School?

[Lastpointe]

I think it does depend on the particular church.

In ours they work through age appropriate lessons related to the lectionary Add in a bunch of fun activities like crafts and cooking.

But then they add in a huge amount of time on social justice issues as kids get older. There is a lot of current event discussions as well. Field trips, mission service trips, food bank trips.....


It isn't indoctrination and it isn't rote learning but it certainly is about exposing children to the Christian church.


I think kids who aren't exposed are at a disadvantage. Kids exposed to the theology and social justice issues from the church perspective have both the secular and Christian points of views.

Kids who don't have that opportunity only get the secular point of view.


And I find the views of the youth and teens are great. They challenge, question, love to discuss with the minister. And some, will join as adults and others won't. But they are still accepted . I have one who joined and one who said no.

It sometimes feels like the last place Available for those types of discussions . Schools now are so limited into their discussions that some of life's big questions can never get asked. Even in comparative religion studies things are too white washed and politically correct. IMO

 

[Delightful Life]

I think kids who aren't exposed are at a disadvantage. Kids exposed to the theology and social justice issues from the church perspective have both the secular and Christian points of views.

Kids who don't have that opportunity only get the secular point of view.

Just like the difference between a Canadian's secular view of America (their ideas from Canadian culture, from the media, from people's opinions and gossip etc. 'america the thug', 'america the bully', etc etc) and from actually talking with Americans, living in America and experiencing America?

I grok :3

 

[chansen]

It isn't indoctrination and it isn't rote learning but it certainly is about exposing children to the Christian church.


I think kids who aren't exposed are at a disadvantage. Kids exposed to the theology and social justice issues from the church perspective have both the secular and Christian points of views.

Kids who don't have that opportunity only get the secular point of view.

There's a new report in the Cognitive Science Journal, titled "Judgments About Fact and Fiction by Children From Religious and Nonreligious Backgrounds." Here's the abstract:

In two studies, 5- and 6-year-old children were questioned about the status of the protagonist embedded in three different types of stories. In realistic stories that only included ordinary events, all children, irrespective of family background and schooling, claimed that the protagonist was a real person. In religious stories that included ordinarily impossible events brought about by divine intervention, claims about the status of the protagonist varied sharply with exposure to religion. Children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school, or both, judged the protagonist in religious stories to be a real person, whereas secular children with no such exposure to religion judged the protagonist in religious stories to be fictional. Children's upbringing was also related to their judgment about the protagonist in fantastical stories that included ordinarily impossible events whether brought about by magic (Study 1) or without reference to magic (Study 2). Secular children were more likely than religious children to judge the protagonist in such fantastical stories to be fictional. The results suggest that exposure to religious ideas has a powerful impact on children's differentiation between reality and fiction, not just for religious stories but also for fantastical stories.

The point being, children raised in secular households, who still read lots of fictional stories, are better able to separate fantasy from fiction. The implication, I think, is that kids in secular households can better evaluate a story and decide if it's real or not. That's a life skill.

There is nothing wrong with fantasy at all, as long as you recognize it's fantasy. There is a problem with reading fantasy and believing it's real. It's called being gullible.

And I find the views of the youth and teens are great. They challenge, question, love to discuss with the minister. And some, will join as adults and others won't. But they are still accepted . I have one who joined and one who said no.

It sometimes feels like the last place Available for those types of discussions . Schools now are so limited into their discussions that some of life's big questions can never get asked. Even in comparative religion studies things are too white washed and politically correct. IMO

I don't think my daughter is missing out on much by not attending church, if anything at all. She's been going to grief classes and grief camp with other kids who have lost mostly moms and dads, and occasionally a sibling. She still asks deep questions about life and death. When we want to get an understanding of something, we just don't go to the bible - we go to Wikipedia. And, of course, she asks some very deep questions that no one has ever answered successfully. Our answer to her? "We don't know."

We tell her that some religions think they do know, and believe the answers to most of those questions has to do with the god they believe in. She knows that some people go to church. She does not personally believe in a god at this point.

And, she is excellent at separating fact from fiction. It's been three years since she declared on her own that there is no Santa Claus, but then she stopped talking about that and goes along with it because it's fun. And that's what we told her - have fun with it. Having your feet planted in reality in no way prevents you from enjoying cultural traditions or fantasy. It just means you don't have to wall off a part of your brain from scrutiny.

 

[Lastpointe]

It's great that you have those discussions with your daughter , we did too. And yet, I did not find myself always able to answer or even direct discussions. Internet? Sure sometimes? But that is not intellectual debating and back and forth discussions.


On line discussions, like the ones here , tend to devolve into the "set" arguments and facts that religious people and non religious people use. You yourself are a master of pulling out huge generalizations about religious beliefs. As are religious people here too

Nothing, in my opinion, can really replace the face to face debate that a teen can have with a knowledgable person

I guess I was referring to the ability to have deep life discussions with adults other than parents.

When I went to school those discussions seemed to get done in school. As I watched my kids go through school those discussions seemed to disappear. Schools have become places for only politically correct discussions. Even at the university level.

I do find that kids themselves discuss things but not with teachers.

At least at church you can have those discussions.

But I do agree that it certainly depends on the adults. Our current minister is wonderful at challenging and being challenged. I agree that many are not likely as good as him

 

[Seeler]

When we want to get an understanding of something, we just don't go to the bible - we go to Wikipedia. And, of course, she asks some very deep questions that no one has ever answered successfully. Our answer to her? "We don't know."

Pretty much the same as what we do.

 

[chansen]

It's great that you have those discussions with your daughter , we did too. And yet, I did not find myself always able to answer or even direct discussions. Internet? Sure sometimes? But that is not intellectual debating and back and forth discussions.


On line discussions, like the ones here , tend to devolve into the "set" arguments and facts that religious people and non religious people use. You yourself are a master of pulling out huge generalizations about religious beliefs. As are religious people here too

I very deliberately use words like "many", "most", "some of", etc. Thanks for noticing.

Nothing, in my opinion, can really replace the face to face debate that a teen can have with a knowledgable person

I guess I was referring to the ability to have deep life discussions with adults other than parents.

When I went to school those discussions seemed to get done in school. As I watched my kids go through school those discussions seemed to disappear. Schools have become places for only politically correct discussions. Even at the university level.

I do find that kids themselves discuss things but not with teachers.

At least at church you can have those discussions.

But I do agree that it certainly depends on the adults. Our current minister is wonderful at challenging and being challenged. I agree that many are not likely as good as him

Our daughter just turned 7. She talks about her "hypotheses", and has been using that word in context for over two years now. She develops opinions, and tests those where possible. Last week a fellow day camper was given a reward for barely helping, which she commented was, "A bit of a stretch." She is not yet ready for debates, but she's getting there. She reads well above her grade level and can explain what she read quite well.

She is very unlikely to become religious. Religion is in the process of missing that opening when she will take things seriously on authority and not question it at all.

As for discussions at the university and high school levels, I don't share your concern. These conversations happen. It could further be argued that many religious leaders focus on the happy clappy parts of the bible, and skim over the rest, so youths aren't getting a full picture of the best and worst Christianity has to offer from that source, either.

Besides, the best information we have is that atheists and agnostics know more about religion than the religious do, or so says the Pew Research Center. People don't reject faith because they don't discuss it or because they don't understand it - they reject faith because they do understand it, if just enough, to recognize that it likely isn't true, or it isn't for them, or they just don't care. And if you've heard about Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad, and your response is a big yawn, then you're closer to me on the faith scale. The weird thing about me is that I find faith fascinating, even though I see it as complete bulls**t.

 

[shortysar]

Going back to answer the OP - Sunday School, or at least how my team and I try to structure it, I think serves all of the purposes listed in the OP, although I might quibble with some of the language. No denying that it is partly a way of entertaining the kids so that parents can more fully engage in worship, sure, but it's more than that or else we'd just cram 'em all in the nursery lol. It's a chance for the kids to learn about out traditions and our faith, but in an exploratory and questioning way - I don't necessarily want them to come out of Sun. School a particular kind of Christian, or necessarily a Christian at all, but I want them to be exposed, in a fun and broad way, to the rich traditions of our faith. I don't like putting the moral/ethical lessons in quite the terms of the OP, but is it an opportunity to explore moral/ethical issues in a safe and age-appropriate way, and possibly even come up with different answers? Yes. Basically, I guess in one sentence, it's a place where kids can go and question and learn about our faith and their values and identity in a safe, age-appropriate space.

 

[Jaebius]

Welcome to WC2 shortysar

....No denying that it is partly a way of entertaining the kids so that parents can more fully engage in worship, sure, but it's more than that or else we'd just cram 'em all in the nursery lol.

It's interesting that we tend to think of Sunday School in that way - but we wouldn't suggest that church is partly a way of entertaining the adults so that kids can fully engage in worship. I think we can do better than either of those statements. I'm not aware of anywhere in Scripture where the Church is called to be concerned about providing entertainment.

Basically, I guess in one sentence, it's a place where kids can go and question and learn about our faith and their values and identity in a safe, age-appropriate space.

Perhaps we should begin to see adult worship in the same way.

 

[crazyheart]

Welcome to the café, @shortysar.

 

[KayTheCurler]

As a child attending church and Sunday School I didn't find a safe place to ask questions. Actually questions were asked of us kids, and only the 'accepted' Christian answer was considered 'ok'. When I was quite young the Sunday School had several classes with the kids segregated by both age and gender. Each year, as kids were confirmed the Sunday School got smaller - confirmation in that time and place was usually regarded as a Church Leaving Certificate. By the time I was confirmation age I was one of three young teens in the congregation. The other two never returned to church after confirmation.

Following my confirmation I was told that I was to take care of the pre-school crowd at Sunday School time. This was tough for me as I didn't know anything about pre-schoolers and wasn't given any help. "Just tell them a story and have them draw a picture" wasn't the type of guidance I thought I needed if I was going to be of use to the kids!

 

[Jaebius]

We had another good worship at the Sunday School my wife and I are leading. The kids read Scripture - sang a song - acted out the story in Exodus where the Israelites build a golden calf to worship [the kids made theirs out of chairs and yellow table cloths] - and then Moses discovers them and throws the two stone [foam] tablets to the ground - and drew outside using sidewalk chalk.

 

[KayTheCurler]

What do you think the children learned from this?

 

[shortysar]

Hmm ... I'm hoping I'm able to post here today I was having some trouble yesterday!

CH - thanks!

Jae - I agree that 'entertainment' wasn't the best chose of words, as it minimizes the worship experience in general (and particularly that of children, which risks being held secondarily to those of their parents' already, as my clumsy expression unintentionally did). I DO hold that worship, for adults OR kids, should perhaps be 'engaging', as opposed to dull, since an inspired and tuned-in congregation is key to any goals any church, progressive or more conservative, might have. But 'entertainment' is too simple a word for what I meant. And yes - I do believe the flipside of what I said (occupying kids while adults worship) is key too - that kids have a chance to explore without their parents hovering also. And that there are times the whole community should worship together. All of the above are important.

Kay - And I know so often Sun. School experiences can be just that - as a children's minister/Sun. School superintendant, I try to make it a more meaningful, child-centred experience. I probably don't always succeed, but that's my goal. I do want the kids to find church a meaningful and, yes, enjoyable, place to be.

 

[Jaebius]

What do you think the children learned from this?

Fair question. We discussed obedience - the meaning of each of the ten commandments - and God's book of life. However - our goal is less to pump the kids' heads full of information and learnin' - and more to facilitate exploration of spirituality through playful creativity.

 

[David Root]

Rev John has covered the topic quite well. But to add my two cents' worth, as one who has led Sunday School for over a decade...

Sunday School is an opportunity to introduce the main Bible stories to children, to share with them the "moral of the story" in terms they can identify with and understand. It is also an opportunity to share the message of Jesus, to foster a sense of "Love God, Love your neighbour" in them, and to foster a respect for Creation.

By all means, it needs to be fun and interactive -- crafts should be relevant, not simply busy work. As well, our Sunday School would engage in special Lenten projects -- promoting a particular project from the UCC's/M+S "Gifts of Hope" book, planting flower and vegetable seeds on the church grounds, or some other hands-on activity that demonstrates to them that they are part of the church community, and as such have an opportunity to reach beyond to the larger community.

It is also a component of the congregation's Baptismal vows: making a commitment to provide a Christian home and Christian nurture.

Of course, this is a tremendous undertaking, made more difficult by the decline in attendance: children who attend only when the parents attend, or the grandparents/relative bring them, or when there isn't hockey/soccer/whatever.

It remains a very worthwhile endeavour, however, and is encouraging to have parents tell you that their kids complain when the parents choose not to attend church on a particular Sunday.

 

[GordW]

Is Sunday school a structured environment to teach children the various ins and outs of their parent`s particular denomination?

IMO no. Some of that might be covered in a confirmation/membership class(probably should be). But general Christian Education is about giving a base on which faith can grow and develop, then helping it to grow and develop.

 

[chansen]

IMO no. Some of that might be covered in a confirmation/membership class(probably should be). But general Christian Education is about giving a base on which faith can grow and develop, then helping it to grow and develop.

The cynical side of me wants to liken that to the spreading of manure.

I just don't understand why faith is a goal. You never hear parents wishing that they hope their kids believe Santa Claus is real for the rest of their lives. Every other bit of childhood faith, we hope or assume our children will grow out of. Somehow, religion gets an exemption from that. Why?

Now, as it happens, many kids do grow out of religious faith and come not to believe at some point in their formative years. It's happening whether the parents want it or not. Some will return, but there is currently no age bracket in Canada where more people are finding faith than leaving it. That is, for every 30-something who returns to faith, more than one 30-something leaves faith. And so it goes with every generation in this country.

And how many are really coming to Sunday School? There is so much kids programming for Sunday mornings now. My daughter has sports on many Sundays. I don't see sports leagues who take Sundays into account any more. It has really gone from the assumption that kids are in church on Sunday back when I was in school, to the assumption that they aren't today.

 

[chansen]

As a child attending church and Sunday School I didn't find a safe place to ask questions. Actually questions were asked of us kids, and only the 'accepted' Christian answer was considered 'ok'. When I was quite young the Sunday School had several classes with the kids segregated by both age and gender. Each year, as kids were confirmed the Sunday School got smaller - confirmation in that time and place was usually regarded as a Church Leaving Certificate. By the time I was confirmation age I was one of three young teens in the congregation. The other two never returned to church after confirmation.

Following my confirmation I was told that I was to take care of the pre-school crowd at Sunday School time. This was tough for me as I didn't know anything about pre-schoolers and wasn't given any help. "Just tell them a story and have them draw a picture" wasn't the type of guidance I thought I needed if I was going to be of use to the kids!

That's the stereotype, isn't it? Deep questions for which there are many possible answers but no definitive ones, have only biblical answers that are acceptable at the Sunday Schools many of us hear about.

If a kid at Sunday School does not believe, but is there because his or her parents, then what? How do Sunday School leaders handle that? Like a remedial student? A challenge to bring back to belief? Send them on their way before they infect the rest of the class?

Seriously, how would you handle it, or if you had that experience what did you do?

 

[Carolla]

.... There is so much kids programming for Sunday mornings now. My daughter has sports on many Sundays. I don't see sports leagues who take Sundays into account any more. It has really gone from the assumption that kids are in church on Sunday back when I was in school, to the assumption that they aren't today.

This is true. My friend used to lament that her kid played in "the atheist hockey league" - no sense at all that some families may want to be at church on Sundays. Rather sad actually.

 

[chansen]

I'm a skier. That has to have the greatest percentage of atheists of any sport. It's based around spending entire weekends doing something you love, then drinking immediately thereafter Saturday night, and has been since before atheism became rather mundane. That pretty much eliminates observant Jews, Muslims and Christians. If they are out there, they ain't talking about it or lamenting that they have to be on a chairlift instead of a pew. I never hear religion discussed while skiing.

Religions are in direct competition now with kids' sports for time. Both parents work in many families. They use before and after-school care. They see their kids awake for 4 hours a day, Monday to Friday. Mostly for meals and teeth cleaning. You want holy? Weekends are sacred to people. Why should they spend a chunk of it in a church? A lot of people still sorta believe in a god, but assume he isn't taking attendance and cares more about other things.

What is sad is when kids can't play because they have to get dragged to church. I knew kids like that growing up. Talk about resenting church.

That said, I understand the predicament the churches are in. They need to capture young people's attention, because if they lose they youth, they can't possibly gain enough older members to even maintain the status quo. Churches are not unlike any other club. You need members coming in the door to offset those leaving. If outflow exceeds inflow for very long, you're in trouble. Am empty Sunday School foreshadows a failing church, just like an empty PeeWee group predicts a dying sporting club.