What Do You See?

[Neo]

What distinction do you make between emotions on the one hand and what is coming from the heart on the other?

Our emotions are pretty basic and instinctual. On the negative side, emotions of such as greed, hate, anger, etc can literally blind us from thinking straight. Think about somebody in a blind rage, they're not thinking at all. On the positive side of emotions, happiness, joy, hope, etc can aspire us towards to thinking more clearly and to listen to the heart. From the heart comes our most sincerest of aspirations, which always, in it's most purest form, express themselves as Love, Wisdom and Service for Humanity. Selflessness and humility are attributes of one who's centred in the heart.

 

[blackbelt1961]

I suppose... but that's not me.

of course not you , its just everyone else

If a new born Christian reads the Bible literally, and in my mind incorrectly, then I would be the last person to suggest that he or she suffers from some kind of "spiritual disease".

well that would be because you don't believe what Christ said and came to do

The only difference I see between any one of us is our level of awareness. People only sin out of ignorance. If they were more emotionally, mentally and spiritually aware then sinning would become less and less of an issue in their lives.

and Jesus died for our sins in vain

 

[Neo]

of course not you , its just everyone else

Of course.

well that would be because you don't believe what Christ said and came to do ...

and Jesus died for our sins in vain

I don't believe in the ransom theory, if that's what you're implying. But that's not to say that I believe he died in vain. I believe He made a huge sacrifice to die the way He did as both an example and a kind of clearing the way so that the rest of Humanity would one day follow. He enfolded within His consciousness, the entire consciousness of Humanity, and so first unified Himself with Humanity and then with God. This enabled Him to say in truth, "I, if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw all men unto Me." John, 12:32

 

[BetteTheRed]

bb, substitutionary atonement (Jesus died for our sins) is not the only acceptable rationale for the death of the person Jesus. It may be yours, but it doesn't mean that it's right.

 

[Mendalla]

bb, substitutionary atonement (Jesus died for our sins) is not the only acceptable rationale for the death of the person Jesus. It may be yours, but it doesn't mean that it's right.

How do you define what is right in a subjective world like religion? The fact is that atonement theologies have been the main understanding of the Crucifixion throughout Christian history and still remain strong in most conservative and mainline churches. Even some liberal Christologies include elements of atonement. There is a strong rejection of it in some quarters of Christianity but I would suggest that BB's view is probably closer to "right" in the sense of what has been the historical norm.

 

[blackbelt1961]

What the big ape said

 

[Neo]

How do you define what is right in a subjective world like religion? The fact is that atonement theologies have been the main understanding of the Crucifixion throughout Christian history and still remain strong in most conservative and mainline churches. Even some liberal Christologies include elements of atonement. There is a strong rejection of it in some quarters of Christianity but I would suggest that BB's view is probably closer to "right" in the sense of what has been the historical norm.

But norms change in time. For thousands of years the animal sacrifices were the norm until it was replaced with an actual human sacrifice to atone for our sins. Seems like humans are always looking for some kind of scapegoat to sacrifice in order to keep the devil at bay.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Well, actually, no. Animal sacrifice replaced human sacrifice. Judaism specifically rejects pagan human sacrifices, like the child sacrifices to Ba'al. I think that the episode where Abraham is instructed to sacrifice Isaac and doesn't have to go through with it marks the end of the period of human sacrifice to gain closeness with the gods. After that, it becomes a communal meal with God. In order to have a meal, of meat, in the ancient world, an animal is going to die.

 

[blackbelt1961]

But norms change in time. For thousands of years the animal sacrifices were the norm until it was replaced with an actual human sacrifice to atone for our sins. Seems like humans are always looking for some kind of scapegoat to sacrifice in order to keep the devil at bay.

how does that even remotely make sense if the entire reason of the old testament is to make man understand of this need? that means man was not looking for a scapegoat.

Further more, did you know that in the occult , thous that know what there doing understand that blood sacrifices somehow give spiritual power to there activities , no scapegoat here either

Bette said it nicely, these animal sacrifices have gone underground

 

[BetteTheRed]

I didn't say what you think I said. You seem to think that a single human sacrifice replaced the communal meal with god of the animal sacrifice. Now that might resonate with a Semitic person with a monotheist belief 2000 years ago, but it's not doing anything, even symbolically, for me. I'm seeing state murder of a dissident.

 

[Neo]

how does that even remotely make sense if the entire reason of the old testament is to make man understand of this need? that means man was not looking for a scapegoat.

It makes perfect sense to me. Humans were too young to take responsibility for their sinful actions so they blamed it all on the devil, the personification of evil. And animal sacrifices were used to appease God for these sins, for "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness". This concept was then applied to the Christ, the Lamb of God being the ultimate blood sacrifice Who was supposed to take away the sins of the world. Look around, sin is more prevalent now than it was 2,000 years ago. What Christ did was to show us by example how love and selflessness can replace hate and selfishness. That's how He can take sin away. But it has to be us that does it. Christ can only show us the way, He can't take us there against our will. Relying on Christ to take magically take all our sins away is a copout, one where we don't really have to take responsibility for our actions.

I think the whole thing was and is misconstrued by theology. While Christ may have paved the way with the laying down of his life, it's up to us to do the same and personally lay our own lives down. In other other words, it's up to us to sacrifice our own lower self, our own personal triad, made up of physical, emotional and lower mental forms, on the Cross of Renunciation. The Christ Himself told us to pick up the cross, deny yourself, and then follow His way. Eventually we'll do "greater things".

I see things differently than most Christians, I don't deny that. But do you, or anyone here believe it's a sin not to follow the theology of the Christian Church? What's more important, our attachment to a theology or our relationship to God?

 

[airclean33]

Well, actually, no. Animal sacrifice replaced human sacrifice. Judaism specifically rejects pagan human sacrifices, like the child sacrifices to Ba'al. I think that the episode where Abraham is instructed to sacrifice Isaac and doesn't have to go through with it marks the end of the period of human sacrifice to gain closeness with the gods. After that, it becomes a communal meal with God. In order to have a meal, of meat, in the ancient world, an animal is going to die.

--Hi Bette The Red.--You also will find ,God said to Abraham . That He God would provide The Lamb. More than this though , you may want to read, about the last supper and what Christ Jesus said about the bread and the wine. Remember He was talking to a room full of Jews .

 

[airclean33]

Neo posted---
It makes perfect sense to me. Humans were too young to take responsibility for their sinful actions so they blamed it all on the devil, the personification of evil. And animal sacrifices were used to appease God for these sins, for "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness". This concept was then applied to the Christ, the Lamb of God being the ultimate blood sacrifice Who was supposed to take away the sins of the world. Look around, sin is more prevalent now that it was 2,000 years ago.

I put this to you Neo. That Christ Jesus said Himself over two thousand years ago . That not one person had made it. Before He came to earth. Do you want to guess how many have been saved since? Would you tell me how many more will be saved , before He returns? We who are saved, were not saved by that which we did . We are saved by that which the only perfect person," that ever lived done. He lived life with no sin , and died clean and pure.

 

[BetteTheRed]

--Hi Bette The Red.--You also will find ,God said to Abraham . That He God would provide The Lamb. More than this though , you may want to read, about the last supper and what Christ Jesus said about the bread and the wine. Remember He was talking to a room full of Jews .

And you might wish to read, and walk through, a Passover Seder, to understand what blood, and what bread, Jesus might have referred to in his remembered speech. Have you ever celebrated a Passover Haggadah? It is not at all what you might imagine.

 

[Neo]

Neo posted---
It makes perfect sense to me. Humans were too young to take responsibility for their sinful actions so they blamed it all on the devil, the personification of evil. And animal sacrifices were used to appease God for these sins, for "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness". This concept was then applied to the Christ, the Lamb of God being the ultimate blood sacrifice Who was supposed to take away the sins of the world. Look around, sin is more prevalent now that it was 2,000 years ago.

I put this to you Neo. That Christ Jesus said Himself over two thousand years ago . That not one person had made it. Before He came to earth. Do you want to guess how many have been saved since? Would you tell me how many more will be saved , before He returns? We who are saved, were not saved by that which we did . We are saved by that which the only perfect person," that ever lived done. He lived life with no sin , and died clean and pure.

I don't see the relevancy to what I said above, and we're straying even farther off topic here, but are you suggesting that Christ said he was the only perfect person? What about Noah, Enoch, Elijah?

 

[Luce NDs]

The struggle to be the perfect one goes on ... somewhat buried, sub-dude, or underground fellow with thoughts that pop up ... instead of rants and rages ... thus demos learns . Tis a social psyche thing even to those in which the psyche is unconscious ... an oddity, or just funny?

 

[airclean33]

And you might wish to read, and walk through, a Passover Seder, to understand what blood, and what bread, Jesus might have referred to in his remembered speech. Have you ever celebrated a Passover Haggadah? It is not at all what you might imagine.

Hi BetteThe Red--Yes it may help me or others to understand the Haggadah. But you see I am not born a Jew. I am a Christian and am more interested in how Our Lord changed some things for the Passover. To understand how Christ said now the Passover is through Him". Or have you missed it? He is the Lamb " sent from GOD The Father.

 

[airclean33]

I don't see the relevancy to what I said above, and we're straying even farther off topic here, but are you suggesting that Christ said he was the only perfect person? What about Noah, Enoch, Elijah?

--My God Neo you would place Jesus The Christ , the only perfect person that ever lived. (With sinful men,") who all made mistakes against The LORD GOD? We know this as it was Christ Jesus who told us . NO ONE had ever past through live without sin , before Him. I am sorry if this is off post Neo , but you" post of some of the most importuned things in Christian belief . Then seem to say it don't matter ?

 

[Neo]

--My God Neo you would place Jesus The Christ , the only perfect person that ever lived. (With sinful men,") who all made mistakes against The LORD GOD? We know this as it was Christ Jesus who told us . NO ONE had ever past through live without sin , before Him. I am sorry if this is off post Neo , but you" post of some of the most importuned things in Christian belief . Then seem to say it don't matter ?

What are you talking about? Would I place Jesus, the only perfect person that ever lived against God??

The word "perfect", and similar descriptions, have been used many times in the Bible. Enoch and Elijah were men who "walked with the Lord" and then were taken. Noah, was described in Genesis 17:1 as "perfect in his generations" and he too "walked with God". Job also was described as "perfect and upright". The author of Hebrews speak of the "spirits of the righteous made perfect", note the use of the plural word "spirits".

Edit to add: I re-read what you attempted to say above, I think you're asking me if I would place Christ with all those sinful men, meaning that I don't believe Christ is "perfect" among men. I don't know why the word perfect is used in so many places in the Bible. Perhaps there are different levels of being perfect. The "spiritual men made perfect" may not be the same kind of Perfect as someone like the Christ is. Which would make sense, as it would suggest there is a Hierarchy of Perfection. Christ may be Perfect from our point of view, but from His point of view there is probably an infinity of levels of Perfection above Him. Maybe everytime He interacts with ordinary men, as He did in Palestine and how He will in His next appearance, He reaches yet another level in that Hierarchy.

 

[Luce NDs]

--My God Neo you would place Jesus The Christ , the only perfect person that ever lived. (With sinful men,") who all made mistakes against The LORD GOD? We know this as it was Christ Jesus who told us . NO ONE had ever past through live without sin , before Him. I am sorry if this is off post Neo , but you" post of some of the most importuned things in Christian belief . Then seem to say it don't matter ?

Does the perfect expression of Jesus only exist in mind ... as this is the only place of perfection in a real world that is flawed?

This is troublesome to some Christians that say there is no mind-sol-psyche under the limitations of God? Our desires just overwhelm the weaker minds until it ripens ... and then like OBI ... we are obtusely out of here ... sometimes you can almost see the spirits rising from the oppressed. If Trump keeps it up ... just watch ... something will be generated from that population of dejected, denied and poor that Trump would like to ignore as if they were alien thinkers ...

The Shadow moves ...