What Do You See?

[GordW]

THat is my sermon title this week.

THe passage is Luke 7:18-35. Followers of John then Baptist come to Jesus with a question "Are You the one we have been waiting for?" Instead of simply answering the question (which .appears to be a yes/no question) Jesus tells them to go back to John and tell him what they have seen. Then John can make his own determination (as, theoretically, can John's followers).

My early thoughts are here:
http://ministerialmutterings.blogspot.ca/2017/02/looking-forward-to-february-12-2017.html
or there is also this post:
https://revgalblogpals.org/2017/02/...ings-tell-me-who-you-are-edition-luke-718-35/

My 2 questions for discussion:
1) where have you seen God at work/the Kingdom breaking into the world recently?
2) when have you missed what God was doing because you were expecting God to do something different?

 

[Luce NDs]

1. God breaking into or breaking up the house?
2. Was separation and schism ... just to allow appreciation when it all come together at the end of the abstract tunnel ... the human mined out and thus hollow as a rheid ... evolving into rheological outlands ... unbelievable to fundamental realist that accepts only hard physical power and ghostly thoughts are just abstract angels ... sometimes dark as laid out on a papyrus medium ... the fodder of all support systems from the imaginary part of mind as construct ... there are downs as supporting opposite ... quite subtle ... perhaps Hurcules lies ther e with Ur Q'looes ... get in line now ... queue'dup?

The virtue in scots was the medium of lamb ... parchment ... know chit as laid to wit as alien chaste .. caste .... that strange woman? You'll have to ask Dravidians about bath a she-Ba .. the effeminate sol ... appears all about yah ... evolving as scion ...

Why many people avoid the line signing up to do etude on psychology ... a study beyond their physical resources on blues, spirituals and ghostly enigmas ... plainly dark! Honky tonk dissonance like those minor keys in: That Lazy Ole Sun?

 

[Luce NDs]

Is God busted or just broken up at real human activity without Eire ...? Some say Eire is a foggy point to impress ... somewhat hairy ... or lead in to King Harry 8's screw up of fixations of god as only found in monarchist ...

 

[GordW]

A question came to mind last night (though I do not think it will make it into the sermon this morning)
So John sends folks to ask Jesus if he is the Messiah…Jesus tells them to report what they see….And in 2 chapters Jesus will ask his friends “Who do others say I am?…Who do YOU say I am?”
Is Jesus only the Messiah if we see/understand him as such? WHat if John’s followers went back and said “Nah, he is just some miracle worker, we have to keep waiting for the Messiah”?

 

[Mendalla]

Is Jesus only the Messiah if we see/understand him as such?

Well, the agnostic answer (and probably holds true for most non-Christians and probably a fair number of progressive/liberal Christians) is a resounding "yes". Believing that Jesus is a Saviour, Messiah, Christ is a matter of faith. I can see him as a prophet/teacher and you can see him as the Messiah, which makes him the latter for you but not for me.

The theist Christian answer, OTOH, would be "no, he becomes Messiah through being made such by God". He is Messiah whether we see him as such or not.

As you can probably guess, I lean to the first answer myself.

 

[Luce NDs]

Well, the agnostic answer (and probably holds true for most non-Christians and probably a fair number of progressive/liberal Christians) is a resounding "yes". Believing that Jesus is a Saviour, Messiah, Christ is a matter of faith. I can see him as a prophet/teacher and you can see him as the Messiah, which makes him the latter for you but not for me.

The theist Christian answer, OTOH, would be "no, he becomes Messiah through being made such by God". He is Messiah whether we see him as such or not.

As you can probably guess, I lean to the first answer myself.

Can a human ... by desire alone make understanding an underlying idealism (god)? Go figure why some people say we are just a spirited people passing through ...

 

[Seeler]

My 2 questions for discussion:
1) where have you seen God at work/the Kingdom breaking into the world recently?
2) when have you missed what God was doing because you were expecting God to do something different?
GordW.

The world seems a dark and frightening place to me right now. I'm worried aboout the not too distant future. My granddaughter is celebrating her 20th birthday. Soon she will be out of university and looking for meaningful work, then a home of heer own, perhaps a family to support. What security can she look for in a world with a mad man at the helm and a religious fanatic supporting him, but no doubt ready to step in if need be?

I see God at work in those who work for justice ... knowing that they might be persecuted for opposing this mad man. I'm thinking of the three judges who placed a ban on Trumps order to block people from seven ccountries entering the US, aand of other people who have spoken out against his policies.
I also see God at work in the individuals who serve one person at a time. The ones who help refugees. The ones who volunteer at the soup kitchen. The ones who knit warm mittens or prayer shawls. The ones who follow Jesus' way - feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, visit the prisoner, and who ask 'why?'

And I guess I am missing God's message when I read another news story and throw my hands up and say 'what's the world coming to?'

 

[Mendalla]

What security can she look for in a world with a mad man at the helm and a religious fanatic supporting him, but no doubt ready to step in if need be?

I see God at work in those who work for justice ... knowing that they might be persecuted for opposing this mad man. I'm thinking of the three judges who placed a ban on Trumps order to block people from seven ccountries entering the US, aand of other people who have spoken out against his policies.

But I (and many others) see humans at their best in those who work for justice. Why should we give credit to God for human achievements?

And how is Bannon seeing God at work in the world fanaticism and you seeing God at work in the world is not? Seems to me you and he both see God in what you believe in/agree with. Is there an objective standard for determining whether God is at work in something or is it just, "I am in favour of this so God must be at work"?

Sorry to sound rather like chansen but it is an issue in answering the questions posed by @GordW .

 

[Luce NDs]

But I (and many others) see humans at their best in those who work for justice. Why should we give credit to God for human achievements?

And how is Bannon seeing God at work in the world is fanaticism and you seeing God at work in the world is not? Seems to me you and he both see God in what you believe in/agree with. Is there an objective standard for determining whether God is at work in something or is it just, "I am in favour of this so God must be at work"?

Sorry to sound rather like chansen but it is an issue in answering the questions posed by @GordW .

Justice keeping high handed closer to the lower and thus humble? Emmanuel's state ...

 

[GordW]

But I (and many others) see humans at their best in those who work for justice. Why should we give credit to God for human achievements?

And how is Bannon seeing God at work in the world fanaticism and you seeing God at work in the world is not? Seems to me you and he both see God in what you believe in/agree with. Is there an objective standard for determining whether God is at work in something or is it just, "I am in favour of this so God must be at work"?

Sorry to sound rather like chansen but it is an issue in answering the questions posed by @GordW .

AS the deceased Obi-Wan said to Luke after Yoda's death: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view"

Where I see God at work someone else might see humanity at their best (though I would posit that from my point of view humanity at their best is precisely because the Imago Dei is shining most clearly and so is God at work). ANd someone else might see it as a grave sign of lack of wisdom--say for example welcoming immigrants and refugees and strangers

 

[chansen]

But again, that's just you superimposing "God" on things you agree with. Mendalla's point isn't that where you see God at work, others see humanity. His point is that where you see God in the welcoming of refugees, others see God in the rejection of refugees. "God", then, becomes a way to lend the authority of "God" to what you agree with.

 

[Mendalla]

"God", then, becomes a way to lend the authority of "God" to what you agree with.

QFT (Quoted for Truth). Sums up the basic problem nicely.

 

[Neo]

But again, that's just you superimposing "God" on things you agree with. Mendalla's point isn't that where you see God at work, others see humanity. His point is that where you see God in the welcoming of refugees, others see God in the rejection of refugees. "God", then, becomes a way to lend the authority of "God" to what you agree with.

If others see God in the rejection of refugees, or any other human being in dire need of help, then that God is self absorbed in respect to humanity as a whole. Selfishness verses selflessness is the decision humanity has to make, no matter what we call it.

 

[Mendalla]

Selfishness verses selflessness is the decision humanity has to make, no matter what we call it.

But does God actually help in that decision when people on both sides have used God in their arguments? Until and unless we can objectively determine God's opinion on these matters, religion isn't really much help. Evolutionary biology has actually demonstrated benefits to altruism scientifically, and I think that's actually more useful in the argument than something taken on faith.

(And, slight tangent, I'm not sure that's the right dichotomy, or at least the right language. I don't think "selflessness" in the sense of completely ignoring/neglecting one's own needs and wants is the answer. Recognizing that achieving one's wants and needs requires living in positive relationship with others, including helping them achieve their wants and needs, is. I'm not sure that's what you mean by "selflessness" though I may be wrong on that count.)

 

[GordW]

But again, that's just you superimposing "God" on things you agree with. Mendalla's point isn't that where you see God at work, others see humanity. His point is that where you see God in the welcoming of refugees, others see God in the rejection of refugees. "God", then, becomes a way to lend the authority of "God" to what you agree with.

I got Mendalla's point quite well thank you very much....and largely agree with it..

The challenge for people of faith is to recognize God acting in ways we don't expect or automatically agree with

 

[Neo]

But does God actually help in that decision when people on both sides have used God in their arguments? Until and unless we can objectively determine God's opinion on these matters, religion isn't really much help. Evolutionary biology has actually demonstrated benefits to altruism scientifically, and I think that's actually more useful in the argument than something taken on faith.

I don't believe God actually "helps" either side, it's up to us to align with God and not the other way around.

(And, slight tangent, I'm not sure that's the right dichotomy, or at least the right language. I don't think "selflessness" in the sense of completely ignoring/neglecting one's own needs and wants is the answer. Recognizing that achieving one's wants and needs requires living in positive relationship with others, including helping them achieve their wants and needs, is. I'm not sure that's what you mean by "selflessness" though I may be wrong on that count.)

By selflessness I mean that our prime purpose in our life should be to help and to love others. If our prime goal in this world is to look out just for ourselves then we are being selfish. Selflessness is inclusionary where selfishness is exclusionary. People like Bannon and the Trump Administration are being selfish to a huge fault, in my opinion. They can say that they believe God is on their side in what they do but those only words, cheap and meaningless.

 

[chansen]

I got Mendalla's point quite well thank you very much....and largely agree with it..

The challenge for people of faith is to recognize God acting in ways we don't expect or automatically agree with

Such as the rejection of refugees?

And really, how often do you see Christians advocating for anything they personally disagree with because they've discerned God wants it? That I've seen, God disapproves of the same things the Christian protesters disapprove of. Christian protesters, therefore, are batting an amazing 1.000 at determining the will of their invisible and mysterious God with a confounding manual.

 

[Mendalla]

I don't believe God actually "helps" either side, it's up to us to align with God and not the other way around.

But how do we align with God when no seems to know with certainty what God is or wants of us to a degree where we can agree on it. Would it not be more useful to look at things like the evolutionary benefits of altruism that are, to some degree, demonstrable? IOW, what's the use of God in creating a better world if God is really just a human construct that people use as they will or, at least, is so remote and cryptic that anyone can find justification for their outlook in God?

 

[BetteTheRed]

And where does "God"s opinion lie on abortion? Every sperm is sacred, or more like God's view of turtle eggs?

 

[Jaebius]

And where does "God"s opinion lie on abortion? Every sperm is sacred, or more like God's view of turtle eggs?

God values every life, including every unborn human life.