UCCan Statement on Medical Assistance in Dying

[KayTheCurler]

I didn't know there were mobile ventilators now. How do they get their power?

 

[Waterfall]

I didn't know there were mobile ventilators now. How do they get their power?

Power packs....they're fairly compact:

You should watch the movie "Breathe" on Netflix.....

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Power packs....they're fairly compact:

You should watch the movie "Breathe" on Netflix.....

Yes, he had enough money and friends to enjoy this. Not the case in NS. You are not getting you private 24/7 nurse. There is no public funding as far as I know, for a ventilator outside of the hospital. I don’t think that LTC facilities take people on ventilators.
It again comes down to where is tax money spend with regards to single persons.

 

[Mendalla]

Yes, he had enough money and friends to enjoy this. Not the case in NS. You are not getting you private 24/7 nurse. There is no public funding as far as I know, for a ventilator outside of the hospital. I don’t think that LTC facilities take people on ventilators.
It again comes down to where is tax money spend with regards to single persons.

The experience in the various programs we are involved with in Ontario has been that the cost of keeping ventilated clients on the community is lower than for keeping them in hospital. We are seeing more such programs starting up, not fewer as you would expect if there is no benefit.

 

[KayTheCurler]

It is often the case that providing what individual people need turns out to be cheaper in the end than denying them the financial help. Group rehab is extremely beneficial but far too often the clients are kicked out after a certain number of weeks. There are people in every community who would benefit from an affordable, ongoing programme that gets them moving (according to their ability). Tai Chi, seated yoga, stretchy bands and light weights, moving to music - the possibilities are endless and could change from day to day.

 

[revjohn]

Excellent video presenting the biblical view of suicide.

Debateable as to excellence.

Question: "What is the Christian view of suicide?

Presumes that there is only one Christian view. So do not expect many nuances by way of answer.

What does the Bible say about suicide?

Good question.

Answer: The Bible mentions six specific people who committed suicide: Abimelech (Judges 9:54), Saul (1 Samuel 31:4), Saul’s armor-bearer (1 Samuel 31:4–6), Ahithophel (2 Samuel 17:23), Zimri (1 Kings 16:18), and Judas (Matthew 27:5). Five of these men were noted for their wickedness (the exception is Saul’s armor-bearer—nothing is said of his character).

Not really sure how the character of the individual enters into what the Bible says about suicide. By focusing on the character it would appear there is going to be some justification made for engaging in eisegesis.

Some consider Samson’s death an instance of suicide, because he knew his actions would lead to his death (Judges 16:26–31), but Samson’s goal was to kill Philistines, not himself.

Following this line of thought to its logical conclusion there is no such thing as a suicide bomber because the bomber's goal is to kill others not themselves.

"Ahhh but revjohn" you ask, "how could they not be trying to kill themselves when they have strapped explosives to their chest?" By virtue of the fact that Samson by pulling a building down on his, and everybody else's head is not considered to be committing suicide. Clearly Samson thought that he would not be harmed while taking this action right?

Samson did commit suicide. Doesn't matter if he took others with him, in fact, it one wants to get technical his is a murder-suicide and I would think that the good Christians at Got Questions, to be consistent would be critical of murder-suicides as well.

Apparently they didn't think much about it themselves.

The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is—self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die. We should say with the psalmist, “My times are in your hands” (Psalm 31:15).

Wait a minute? What about the earlier references to suicide? Are we not going to look at those texts to determine what the scriptures are teaching at the time? How the heck did we come to the conclusion that Psalm 31: 15 refers to any let alone all of the examples previously listed? Back up Got Questions you seem to be ignoring the very scriptures you already referenced.

Immediately he called to the young man who carried his armor and said to him, “Draw your sword and kill me, so people will not say about me, ‘A woman killed him.’”

Hmmm. I guess as a proof-text regarding assisted suicide it says absolutely nothing. Nothing for and nothing against. Maybe some other text in the immediate vicinity helps?

But a certain woman threw an upper millstone on Abimelech’s head, and crushed his skull.

So, Abimelech, suffering a mortal injury (or at least one he believed to be eventually fatal) asks to be put out of his misery. Part of that misery would be the idea that a woman had killed him and not some trained soldier. Scripture makes no judgment about this decision. Certainly doesn't say that the decision was made because Abimelech was wicked. The only reason, apparently, he asked for his armour bearer to finish the job is so that nobody would laugh at his memory because he was killed by a woman.

If only the scriptures had not recorded that he had been killed by a woman.

With respect to suicide being contrary to the scriptures or the will of God this text does not prove that. What it shows is that with respect to the narrative there was no moral value assigned to the assisted death. None. No punishment fell to the armour bearer for taking the action that he did.

Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and thrust me through with it, so that these uncircumcised may not come and thrust me through, and make sport of me.” But his armor-bearer was unwilling; for he was terrified. So Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.

Saul is badly wounded by enemy archers and is now waiting for enemy spearmen to arrive and finish the job. He would rather not die by the hand of the enemy. He asks for an assisted death. His armour bearer refuses out of fear (fear of what we are not told) so Saul falls on his sword. The armour bearer then falls on his own sword.

Two suicides in as many verses. No comment in the narrative about how this pleased or displeased God. This text also is a horrible proof-text about God's opinion regarding suicide simply because there is no revelation about God's opinion.

When Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his donkey and went off home to his own city. He set his house in order, and hanged himself; he died and was buried in the tomb of his father.

Also not much of a proof-text for or against suicide although. Just looking at the fact that he was buried in the tomb of his father suggests nobody thought his act much of an abomination. Certainly nothing in the narrative betrays any admiration or reprehension regarding his actions.

When Zimri saw that the city was taken, he went into the citadel of the king’s house; he burned down the king’s house over himself with fire, and died—

No proof-text here one way or another. Makes it difficult to assert that scripture speaks very clearly against suicide when we keep having texts of the actual act that are also devoid of actual judgement against the individual who commited suicide.

Let us not move on just yet.

because of the sins that he committed, doing evil in the sight of the Lord, walking in the way of Jeroboam, and for the sin that he committed, causing Israel to sin.

I notice that here, in this case we finally have some narrative lifting up the sin of the one who had committed suicide. It is important to note that listed among the sins is not the act of suicide. A golden opportunity, if ever there was one, to communicate that suicide is sin wasted.

Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

Last chance for the proof-text to say something for or against and they, like the previous texts are mysteriously silent with respect to what God thinks about suicide.

More narrative from the individual is included here.

He said, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” But they said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”

Judas admits he is a sinner. Mentions the sin is betraying innocent blood (conspiracy to commit murder) and what is the Biblical punishment for murder? Death penalty isn't it? Judas hangs himself. Doesn't that actually fulfill the demand of the law? Even if it doesn't there is no narrative saying that what Judas did was wrong. Scripture is silent about it.

Strange don't you think? That scripture would be so against suicide that there is never, in connection with the listed suicides any text condemning that action.

I find it strange if scripture is that clear.

Maybe Got Questions can explain what I am missing.

God is the giver of life. He gives, and He takes away (Job 1:21).

This I can agree with. A claim and scripture which actually supports it.

Suicide, the taking of one’s own life, is ungodly because it rejects God’s gift of life.

I empathize with this claim. I note that it is made without any supporting scripture so as much as I might empathize it amounts to opinion of the interpreter and not actual revelation from God.

No man or woman should presume to take God’s authority upon themselves to end his or her own life.

I also empathize with this claim for the most part. It is also made without supporting scripture so it is also just an opinion. And not necessarily one that God shares considering the silence of God in the wake of the previously listed suicides.

Some people in Scripture felt deep despair in life. Solomon, in his pursuit of pleasure, reached the point where he “hated life” (Ecclesiastes 2:17). Elijah was fearful and depressed and yearned for death (1 Kings 19:4). Jonah was so angry at God that he wished to die (Jonah 4:8). Even the apostle Paul and his missionary companions at one point “were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself” (2 Corinthians 1:8).

While true not particularly relevant. If you want to discuss suicide it is probably best to stick with the suicides already on the plate rather than turn your attention to non-suicides.

However, none of these men committed suicide. Solomon learned to “fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind” (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Elijah was comforted by an angel, allowed to rest, and given a new commission. Jonah received admonition and rebuke from God. Paul learned that, although the pressure he faced was beyond his ability to endure, the Lord can bear all things: “This happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead” (2 Corinthians 1:9).

The fact that none of them committed suicide is not particularly informative for discussions about suicide that did happen.

So, according to the Bible, suicide is a sin.

According to which text? I mean, if the Bible clearly says that at some point other than where suicide does happen then I would expect any group which desires to teach from scripture would actually refer to the scripture which makes that point explicit.

It is not the “greatest” sin—it is no worse than other evils, in terms of how God sees it, and it does not determine a person's eternal destiny.

Granting, for the sake of argument that we have proven suicide sinful, then yes it is important to treat it no differently than any other sin that we might address.

However,

Meaning forget everything I just said and listen to the next bit.

suicide definitely has a deep and lasting impact on those left behind.

No question or argument. Does this prove it is sinful?

The painful scars left by a suicide do not heal easily.

They most certainly don't. Does this prove it is sinful?

May God grant His grace to each one who is facing trials today (Psalm 67:1).

Indeed. May those in need of grace never fail to have God deliver it to them.

And may each of us take hope in the promise, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Romans 10:13).

I can agree with this hope also. It doesn't automatically render suicide sin. Especially if, as mentioned above suicide, if sinful, is no different from any other sin. Meaning it is forgiveable.

Returning to the issue of the excellence of this particular answer provided by Got Questions. I find it well below the excellent level. It is an opinion. It actually ignores texts it raises as examples of the problem.

And two of those texts are profoundly relevant to the issue of assisted death in the face of an imminent dying.

The video nor the transcription bother to address the fact that two fatally wounded individuals ask for help in dying. One gets it, another is refused it and so kills himself and God is, in those moments silent.

So Got Questions plays God and puts words into God's mouth that God cannot be bothered to speak God's self.

Huge miss.

 

[Luce NDs]

Then did Adam commit suicide by entanglement with the darkness ... Eve?

Caused some drifting off parameter!

Then if the lady was rye ... would that be dark as ice's ... deadly to warm too?

Freud's frigidity source ... mountain streams ...

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

The experience in the various programs we are involved with in Ontario has been that the cost of keeping ventilated clients on the community is lower than for keeping them in hospital. We are seeing more such programs starting up, not fewer as you would expect if there is no benefit.

It hasn’t come to NS yet. I would love to see an All Canadian healthcare where everyone can get the same healthcare in all provinces. I am sure most things, like 24/7 nursing care, would be affordable if money would be re-assigned from military expenses, waste of resources, and limits to maximum income levels.
The same as food could be cheaper, if CEOs would get paid a normal income and we wouldn’t waste a large part of it before and after it goes onto the shelf.

 

[Mendalla]

I would love to see an All Canadian healthcare where everyone can get the same healthcare in all provinces.

I agree but, to be honest, the Feds can only get involved in health care where the provinces allow. Constitutionally, health ended up in provincial hands and that can only change with the provinces' consent, creating a bit of a Catch-22 in an era where provinces want more power, not less. The Canada Health Act, which was the product of an agreement among the Feds and the provinces is the best we can get and we need to push to beef it up. We also need the provinces to do more sharing at lower levels so, for instance, NS's home care folks are talking to Ontario's and learning about things like our ICC (Integrated Community Care) pilot.

if CEOs would get paid a normal income

I have questions about this but it's probably better to start a new thread. Later.

 

[Luce NDs]

I agree but, to be honest, the Feds can only get involved in health care where the provinces allow. Constitutionally, health ended up in provincial hands and that can only change with the provinces' consent, creating a bit of a Catch-22 in an era where provinces want more power, not less. The Canada Health Act, which was the product of an agreement among the Feds and the provinces is the best we can get and we need to push to beef it up. We also need the provinces to do more sharing at lower levels so, for instance, NS's home care folks are talking to Ontario's and learning about things like our ICC (Integrated Community Care) pilot.



I have questions about this but it's probably better to start a new thread. Later.

Tis something of ongoing myth ... given our propensity against thought and knowledge in preference for doing freely what is willed ... succession succeeds!


Creation needed a place to put this peculiarity ... and the powers do not wish particular things questioned ... some follow this wish blindly ... as assigned to the accrued pile ...

Entangled? I could be said ... like a quantum state ...

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Received this today:

Where next for the Standard

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Will UCCan make a statement about Charleigh Pollock?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I agonize when I hear your stories. It hurts to read them. I also agonize when I hear about adults with disabilities who have very little but their lives and commit suicide because they have their supports removed due to bureaucratic red tape. I agonize at the thought of those who already have little in the way of support...discriminated against in any sort of gainful employment, discriminated against in social opportunities that others take for granted, at the mercy of a draconian welfare system...ending up with nothing but that option. I agonize at the thought that people might want to do this so as not to burden their families. I agonize that those who could pursue available supports and resources - while they exist - might choose not to because they are ashamed at their loss of capacity. I agonize that if they don't choose them, the budget will look favourably at ending those options. It's already been documented that MAID is saving the government money. I agonize that a person with a disability who has other options could potentially choose MAID anyway, for any of the above reasons, but because they have the added layer of having a chronic disability caused by a condition they might (or might not directly) eventually die from - suicide prevention doesn't need to be offered with the same moral imperative. I agonize that they have such little time to change their minds. I agonize that because it is a "medical procedure" there is no duty to warn family to intervene or any other professional who could help them so they can live. I agonize about a lot of things. It's not all about me...I am seeing a big picture that changes society in some pretty fundamental ways and I'm seeing more negatives than positives in that change.

Still

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

This thread points to some necessary truth to be told though. Kids were already dying needlessly.

 

[Luce NDs]

But ... how can the advantaged, advance appropriately before the others if they don't take something from the aforesaid?

Maybe if they took a lesson from it ... all things could proceed in balance ... naw! The wish to be beta for it and thus holes in the undercarriage ...

Balance is insufficient for a portion ... if only to create pain and wake the other up! There are options that are yet beyond physical powers ... kind of wispy ...

I heard this sad story one day while all alone in a tavern ... out of town! Made me listen to the stranger a bit ... its complex, a wicked story ... if the powers knew the full effect could they do what they do ... thus the ideals of the great unknow 'n rather unknowing? How will they learn? Expose them ... strip then down ...

Explains long robes ... even with the implications of wear 'n!

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

This thread, too, is political - not health and aging.

 

[GordW]

This thread, too, is political - not health and aging.

Actually it is both. Things don't fit into neat categories all the time

 

[GordW]

Will UCCan make a statement about Charleigh Pollock?

Unlikely.

 

[Luce NDs]

Why would a church get into a controversial topic unless hidden, sacredly and Gnostic so out of the way of the ideas of the general populace?

I've been told church structures have nothing sacred about them ...

But, you know what like Thomas I too have doubts about everything that is thrown at us as outliers to the central circle!

Is it abstract what goes on there? I'm told that "abstract" is dark, unknown and kind of like dark night of soul ... a kind of unconventional cover thing?

So many questions ... such a dearth of answers ... its as if few do know ... especially about greater bothers and concerns! Is that a worry ... dame ...

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Actually it is both. Things don't fit into neat categories all the time

It shouldn’t be depoliticized by putting it into health and aging. It takes attention away from the UN concerns etc. people looking for political discussion about it might miss it etc.