TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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Millions of people loved Eddie Van Halen. Did that qualify him to run a country? Trump's success really opens up some very old, but very serious, questions about democracy as a system. Can we really trust the people to make the right choices?

The fact is, there are many Amercians far more qualified than Trump to be in the White House who aren't even in politics because they don't want to pander to the lowest common denominator to get votes. Intellectual honesty doesn't matter in their, or our, system. As long as the people like you (or don't hate you in some really sad cases), you're in.

Our boy is a classic example. Trudeau did not win on any kind of qualification for the job, he won because people liked him and hated Harper. Half his cabinet are probably better qualified to be PM than the PM himself.
What's the better alternative to democracy in your opinion? Your push against it scares me a little bit.
 

Mendalla

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What's the better alternative to democracy in your opinion? Your push against it scares me a little bit.
I am not pushing against anything, just raising a question that philosophers have been raising as far back as Socrates. When most individuals act primarily out of self-interest and often in ignorance, why would the collective wisdom create a just state?

Personally, I am for democracy but agree with you that an educated electorate needs to be part of it. Not just civics, either. Philosophy, esp. ethics, needs to be in there, too. Something that should be taught in high school, not in university. Basic, simple elements of it even earlier.

Of course, then you have the problem of parents who object to you teaching stuff like that and want the right to home school or send their kids to religious private schools. How do you ensure everyone gets that education when parents right to control what their children learn is recognized as a "democratic right"?
 
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The other question if he goes tolive somewhere else could be the same as it was for Megan and Harry- who pays for his security?
If he goes to live somewhere else I would assume he'd need to be "sponsored" by one of his dictator buddies, where there's no extradition treaty. The reason he'd go is because of the hot water he's in. In that case I don't think secret service would apply.
 

Mendalla

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If he goes to live somewhere else I would assume he'd need to be "sponsored" by one of his dictator buddies, where there's no extradition treaty. The reason he'd go is because of the hot water he's in. In that case I don't think secret service would apply.
To be honest, I could see Trump pulling a Nixon (or whoever it was) anyhow. Can't see him trusting his security to the government once he's out of government himself.
 
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I am not pushing against anything, just raising a question that philosophers have been raising as far back as Socrates. When most individuals act primarily out of self-interest and often in ignorance, why would the collective wisdom create a just state?

Personally, I am for democracy but agree with you that an educated electorate needs to be part of it. Not just civics, either. Philosophy, esp. ethics, needs to be in there, too. Something that should be taught in high school, not in university. Basic, simple elements of it even earlier.

Of course, then you have the problem of parents who object to you teaching stuff like that and want the right to home school or send their kids to religious private schools. How do you ensure everyone gets that education when parents right to control what their children learn is recognized as a "democratic right"?
That's why this US administration is pushing "school choice" so much. They want a dumbed down population.

In Canada there are some rules about mandatory curriculum, I thought. So, even religious private schools need to teach the same basics as the public schools.
 

Mendalla

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So, even religious private schools need to teach the same basics as the public schools.
Varies from province to province. There is no national standard for education in Canada. Some cut them more slack than others, IIRC.

The bottom line is that there are schools that will teach that the Bible/faith is the sole source of wisdom and morality, even if they tack that on to a curriculum that meets some minimum provincial standard.

And here in Ontario, we have a publicly funded religious school system run by a faith that teaches that women can't be leaders, contraception is evil, and homosexuality is a sin. How can we teach a truly democratic ethos based on respect for others in a system like that?

But that's moving too far beyond the subject of Trump, perhaps?
 

Ritafee

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In Canada there are some rules about mandatory curriculum, I thought.
Within a communist nation, government control is paramount. Control of education, control of media, control of religion, control of sexuality–control of every aspect of society.
 

Lastpointe

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Keeping in mind that people get left behind as society changes

some of that is their choice, the education they choose or don’t for example

but others are out of their hands. Born into poverty, it’s hard to rise out of it

born into a thriving manufacturing state, where over time those jobs disappear. And Trump is right. They disappeared to China and Indonesia and places where labour is cheap

other good jobs, like tech jobs disappeared to India and other countries where labour is cheap and plentiful , the population is educated and now with technology there is no need for the person you call to be in North America , let alone your own city



for what ever reason that people get left behind, they resent it. They resent the east coast and west coast folks who make the rules. In our case everyone seems to dislike the Ottawa bubble and Bay Street

And Trump saw that. He smartly latched onto it. I will fix it. I am an ordinary guy like you...... of course that wasn’t true. Like any con man he can say exactly what is needed And he is very good at it. You have to give him credit for being excellent at exploiting people

at these crazy rallies he is having now. Who in that crowd isn’t swooning when he tells them he loves them.
snake oil salesmen have always known how to appeal to the populace. Justin did it here. The whole “I am an ordinary guy“( he wasn’t). I am going to do politics differently. ( he isn’t). I believe in transparency ( well unless it is awkward for me). And on and on

we have our own Trump. A populace who Knows how to charm his base. It’s just that Justin is more acceptable on the surface and most people don’t delve into details
 
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Keeping in mind that people get left behind as society changes

some of that is their choice, the education they choose or don’t for example

but others are out of their hands. Born into poverty, it’s hard to rise out of it

born into a thriving manufacturing state, where over time those jobs disappear. And Trump is right. They disappeared to China and Indonesia and places where labour is cheap

other good jobs, like tech jobs disappeared to India and other countries where labour is cheap and plentiful , the population is educated and now with technology there is no need for the person you call to be in North America , let alone your own city



for what ever reason that people get left behind, they resent it. They resent the east coast and west coast folks who make the rules. In our case everyone seems to dislike the Ottawa bubble and Bay Street

And Trump saw that. He smartly latched onto it. I will fix it. I am an ordinary guy like you...... of course that wasn’t true. Like any con man he can say exactly what is needed And he is very good at it. You have to give him credit for being excellent at exploiting people

at these crazy rallies he is having now. Who in that crowd isn’t swooning when he tells them he loves them.
snake oil salesmen have always known how to appeal to the populace. Justin did it here. The whole “I am an ordinary guy“( he wasn’t). I am going to do politics differently. ( he isn’t). I believe in transparency ( well unless it is awkward for me). And on and on

we have our own Trump. A populace who Knows how to charm his base. It’s just that Justin is more acceptable on the surface and most people don’t delve into details
Justin isn't sending militia after protesters, keeping kids in cages and is better at helping through natural disasters and pandemics. He wouldn't do what Trump did to Puerto Rico. He's not meddling with voting. He's not threatening to not step down if he loses an election. He's not putting women's rights and minority rights in danger. Justin wouldn't not help a province out of a disaster just because the premier was of another party. And, I'm sorry, but he just isn't as bad a choice as Trump is - even if he's imperfect. He's not dividing people so deliberately like Trump is. The person dividing people more, even in Canada and around the world, is Trump. Trump's administration has been a revolving door mafia.

The Harper government was scary for Canada. That is why he was voted out. It was slow, crafty, creeping fascism. Which tends to work out better for the wealthy. He also disingenuously tried to appeal to the "common folk" - but he was actually pandering to the wealthy. He was not gregarious and flaunting the way Trump is. He was still a creeping (and creepy) fascist. And his "old stock Canadians" comments had pretty racist, white supremacist, connotations. He was also a fundamentalist theocrat. Something wealthy secular voters ignored for their convenience. Justin is imperfect, but a better choice than Harper would've been, on the heels of Trump entering office. The two of them would've been a nightmare. I'm glad we averted it somewhat.
 
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Ritafee

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It will be interesting to me to see the voter non-turnout in this election ... people just aren't buying into the facade that there is an actual choice anymore.
 

Lastpointe

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Justin isn't sending militia after protesters, keeping kids in cages and is better at helping through natural disasters and pandemics. He wouldn't do what Trump did to Puerto Rico. He's not meddling with voting. He's not threatening to not step down if he loses an election. He's not putting women's rights and minority rights in danger. Justin wouldn't not help a province out of a disaster just because the premier was of another party. And, I'm sorry, but he just isn't as bad a choice as Trump is - even if he's imperfect. He's not dividing people so deliberately like Trump is. The person dividing people more, even in Canada and around the world, is Trump. Trump's administration has been a revolving door mafia.

The Harper government was scary for Canada. That is why he was voted out. It was slow, crafty, creeping fascism. Which tends to work out better for the wealthy. He also disingenuously tried to appeal to the "common folk" - but he was actually pandering to the wealthy. He was not gregarious and flaunting the way Trump is. He was still a creeping (and creepy) fascist. And his "old stock Canadians" comments had pretty racist, white supremacist, connotations. He was also a fundamentalist theocrat. Something wealthy secular voters ignored for their convenience. Justin is imperfect, but a better choice than Harper would've been, on the heels of Trump entering office. The two of them would've been a nightmare. I'm glad we averted it somewhat.
No he is not doing the things you list

is he helping us? Or himself?

is the government reaction good or bad!

i honestly don’t know. I think because trump is so obviously horrendous it gives a guy like Justin a pass. Is that right?

alot of what Canada has done has not been good. Of course that is offset by factions that espouse what is right. I don’t know. But I abhor the Servitude paid to to Justin. Being Against trump not good enough. But it seems to ge

we honestly dnot hold our elected officials to any standard
 

BetteTheRed

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Oh, I disagree, Lastpointe. I'm not terribly displeased with the job that the NDP are doing supporting this minority.
 

jimkenney12

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Justin has not been given a pass by many people. As Mendalla' posted, there are people that n his cabinet who would make better prime ministers. But he is better than the options in the Conservatives.
 

Mendalla

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Justin has not been given a pass by many people. As Mendalla' posted, there are people that n his cabinet who would make better prime ministers. But he is better than the options in the Conservatives.
Let's face it, Singh is probably the best current leader in the house right now. Blanchet's not bad, either. Hopefully Annamie Paul gets a seat before too long so we can see her in action, but I am pleased so far. However, as a Green, she's unlikely to have much clout unless something really shifts in the next election.
 

BetteTheRed

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It doesn't under our current first past the post system.

I'd have a huge amount of respect for the NDP if they'd push electoral reform.
 

Ritafee

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There's still a choice between not that great and diabolical. There's a difference.
As social commentator, one-time political candidate, and author Gore Vidal once noted: there is really only one political party in this country, and it has two incestuously related branches.
 
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As social commentator, one-time political candidate, and author Gore Vidal once noted: there is really only one political party in this country, and it has two incestuously related branches.
That may be true, or may have been true, but ever since the tea party nutcases infiltrated the Republican Party it's much worse. They do not work across the aisle on anything to help the people. And the uber selfish individualism of libertarian ideology in the mix just leaves people poorer and worse off - it's not an empathetic ideology.
 

Ritafee

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They do not work across the aisle on anything to help the people.
True.

But they do work across the aisle when it comes to supporting U.S. Imperialism

The stated goal of the democratic party, in concert with the republican party, is to maintain the military empire and it uses false narratives and lies to maintain the manufactured enemy list required to justify it's service to the military industrial complex, major corporations and banks, and the oligarchy/plutocracy controlling the U.S. government.

War is Peace, Slavery is Freedom, Murder is Humanitarianism.
 
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