TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

[revsdd]

Kids are being taken from their parents who are breaking the law. I am sure that happens in Toronto too.

If you can find me an example from Toronto or anywhere else in Canada of children being taken from their parents and housed in even the most comfortable mass detention centres, please do so. But at least you've implicitly acknowledged that this isn't "fake news." That's the first step toward breaking away from the cult. Congratulations.

These camps have been running since 2014 - Donald is not the source.

Brush up on your history. Immigration detention centres have existed in the US since at least Ellis Island opened in the 1890's. They long predate Donald Trump. There's nothing unusual about them. The uniquely Trump-ian aspects of these camps is the children of illegal immigrants being forcibly separated from their parents and housed in camps without their parents and with limited contact with their parents. Oh, and the fake quote from Trump and his picture being the first thing they see as they enter (and, yes, I know in the case in question other presidents are included in the mural.)

The camps seem more humane than to let the children run loose and become victims of child sex trafficking.

I suppose it depends on how you define "humane." Their basic needs are being taken care of. Their parents are absent.

But you have a better idea, I am sure.

How about - if you must detain them - detain the children with their parents?

 

[Mendalla]

The precedent for this is that for most of the same people, if it's in the Bible it's fact. Not thinking and just accepting something on self-professed authority, and making that a good thing, is what religion does. This is Christianity in action.

If that was Christianity in action, the Reformation never would have happened and the Protestant movement would not have splintered into hundreds of sects/denominations. Yes, there is an authoritarian side to some streams of Christianity but there is also a strong anti-authoritarian tradition that goes back before Luther, even if it didn't fully assert until his time. Even UU'ism (or at least our Unitarian and Universalist forebearers) are part of that.

 

[revsdd]

The precedent for this is that for most of the same people, if it's in the Bible it's fact. Not thinking and just accepting something on self-professed authority, and making that a good thing, is what religion does. This is Christianity in action.

Now, chansen. Biblical literalism has never been the sole or even necessarily the dominant method of biblical interpretation. You're referring to Christian fundamentalism - a variant of Christianity, but something that in theological terms has only existed in any organized doctrinal fashion since the late 19th century and is mostly an American phenomenon - although it's been spread into environments where there's a lot of American influence.

 

[chansen]

If that was Christianity in action, the Reformation never would have happened and the Protestant movement would not have splintered into hundreds of sects/denominations. Yes, there is an authoritarian side to some streams of Christianity but there is also a strong anti-authoritarian tradition that goes back before Luther, even if it didn't fully assert until his time. Even UU'ism (or at least our Unitarian and Universalist forebearers) are part of that.

Great, find me the strong anti-authoritarian side now, because I don't see it. This is Christianity in action now. This is what people associate with Christianity today.

Now, chansen. Biblical literalism has never been the sole or even necessarily the dominant method of biblical interpretation. You're referring to Christian fundamentalism - a variant of Christianity, but something that in theological terms has only existed in any organized doctrinal fashion since the late 19th century and is mostly an American phenomenon - although it's been spread into environments where there's a lot of American influence.

All I'm saying is there is a massive overlap between the cult of Trump, and the cult of fundamentalist Christianity. And that the latter paved the way for the former.

 

[Northwind]

And...
That is more fake news. Almost had me there.

Inside Casa Padre, the converted Walmart where the U.S. is holding nearly 1,500 immigrant children

Shades of Handmaid's Tale......
Casa Padre? Quotes from presidents? Do you not see not see any parallels to another time in history? And the obscene amount of money the people who run the facility make? Oh, but it's just fake news. Yeah the Jews were illegal too. The women needed protecting. There's always a way to rationalize and make it "right"

 

[revsdd]

Great, find me the strong anti-authoritarian side now, because I don't see it. This is Christianity in action now. This is what people associate with Christianity today.

Many people. Mostly those who (1) are fundamentalists and assume that "their" Christianity is the only Christianity or who (2) like to paint caricatures of Christianity, thus creating straw men to knock down.

In any event what people associate with Christianity is not necessarily a fair view of Christianity.

All I'm saying is there is a massive overlap between the cult of Trump, and the cult of fundamentalist Christianity. And that the latter paved the way for the former.

Actually, that's not all you said - you generalized fundamentalist Christianity with all of Christianity. Here, you've corrected that generalization, and I largely agree with you.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

If you can find me an example from Toronto or anywhere else in Canada of children being taken from their parents and housed in even the most comfortable detention centres, please do so.

Kids are being taken from their parents who are breaking the law. I am sure that happens in Toronto too.
Why are so many black children in foster and group homes? | The Star

Hey maybe the United Church could look after them!

 

[revsdd]

Kids are being taken from their parents who are breaking the law. I am sure that happens in Toronto too.
Why are so many black children in foster and group homes? | The Star

Foster and group homes are not "mass detention centres."

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Foster and group homes are not "mass detention centres."

I knew you were going to say that and that is why I requoted what I said.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

When you have a hurricane, you put people in building suitable for the occasion.

 

[chansen]

Actually, that's not all you said - you generalized fundamentalist Christianity with all of Christianity. Here, you've corrected that generalization, and I largely agree with you.

This is what people associate with Christianity in general now. These are the loudest Christians, and there are more of them than the non-literalists will admit.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

And the kids are far safer from sexual abuse there than in the foster system.

 

[Northwind]

And the kids are far safer from sexual abuse there than in the foster system.

I would not be so sure about that.

 

[Mendalla]

Great, find me the strong anti-authoritarian side now, because I don't see it. This is Christianity in action now. This is what people associate with Christianity today.

So the churches who back BLM and similar movements don't count?

The Christian ministers who stood up at personal risk against the famous right wing demonstrations in Charlottesville don't count?

The many Christian voices, including official denominational ones, speaking out against Trump's immigration and other policies don't count?

Just because the media (and, I point out, atheists) ignore those voices or don't tag them as "Christian" doesn't mean they aren't there or they aren't Christian. Yes, it's too bad that a particular wing of the faith is getting to define it, but I don't think that's entirely the fault of that faith. You could be pointing out the Christians who are standing up, who are being voices against the nonsense, as examples for all Christians to follow. You could be vocally supporting churches like Bette's and Seeler's that are actually working hard to made a difference in their communities and the world; showing people that Christianity and atheism really can, and often do, have the same goals in the world. Instead, you choose to use the worst element of the faith as a brush to tar the entire religion and dismiss any Christians who don't fit your stereotype/strawman.

And that's why New Atheism is turning off people like me. It's ceased to be a movement for reason and intelligence and has become just as histrionic and aggressive as the extreme end of the faith crowd.

My son is, I hope, the future of atheism. He's an atheist but he's more than happy to live and let live where religion is concerned, even acknowledge when it gets things right, while still thinking it's nonsense and won't set foot in even a UU church.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Did you notice how racist Ontario is portrayed in the article I posted?

As soon as the new premier starts his job, that article will be pulled out and attributed to Doug Ford.

That’s how you roll.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

I would not be so sure about that.

Sadly, you could be right on that

 

[BetteTheRed]

Did you notice how racist Ontario is portrayed in the article I posted?

Every contemporary multi-cultural society has struggles. Ontario's are no worse, no better than others. At least we're talking about it, although I notice that the article is dated 2014, with a reference to an earlier 2011 article. Reaching much?

As soon as the new premier starts his job, that article will be pulled out and attributed to Doug Ford.

That's an interesting conclusion. Could you give me some idea of how you came to that? "What" will be attributed to Doug Ford? Racism? Generally, if we're looking for offensive stuff about Mr. Ford, he provides it himself, in his own words. Doesn't need ancient newspaper articles to make him look bad. There's a reason why he doesn't talk much; it rarely ends well.

That’s how you roll.

Who is you? Are you painting everyone who doesn't think like you as some sort of clone of some "awful liberal you met on the internets"? Your arguments largely lack substance. If the best you can come up with in a discussion about separating children from their parents in the U.S. is a 4-7 year old opinion piece about black kids in care in Toronto, "straws" would be what you're reaching for, I think...

 

[GordW]

Kids are being taken from their parents who are breaking the law. I am sure that happens in Toronto too.
Why are so many black children in foster and group homes? | The Star

Hey maybe the United Church could look after them!

Did you read the article? It was a condemnation of systemic racism not an argement that those children were being taken from parents breaking the law..

 

[Graeme Decarie]

Here's a classic case of fake news from CBC which is, of course, entirely fake. If this story were true, our oil barons would have told us about it a long time ago. They're real, real smart. And Christian. Our local one even built his own church, naming it modestly after his family, The Irving Chapel.

3 trillion tons of Antarctic ice lost since 1992, seas rising, study suggests | CBC News

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Revsdd asked for an example. That is the first one that came up and I needed go no further. Sorry it’s 4 years old. Graeme gives me examples from the 1800’s.