Transgenderism ..... ask your questions!
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RitaTG
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No... I am not brave ...they are
Maybe you should get out more
Nice dodge.
Okay.
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
You are one strong woman and one strong church. whoop! whoop!
I am about to ask questions or my reflect thoughts in fraught territory...so here it goes...
I have been following, not as an admirer but as a critic, Jordan Peterson. Some of you may have noticed.
He just threw me for a big loop. On one hand he has been supporting Men’s Rights Activist positions, and is opposed to the recent court decision against Trinity Western’s LGBTQ discrimination. On the other, he just promoted a radical feminist artist named Nina Paley - whose work, I have to say is intriguing - and from a cis-women’s equality perspective, makes sense. And she calls out Patriarchy...which Peterson has denied exists. So, that’s interesting and I don’t know what to make of it.
This is where it gets fraught. She is a what’s called a Gender Critical feminist. Which means she does not think trans women are women. I don’t take that side, but I get both sides...or I am confused about both sides...of the argument.
I think that sex is biological, and gender is a social construct...that is to say, aside from a very few exceptions, people fall predominantly on the sperm producing organs human side, or the egg producing organs human side. I’ve never heard of anyone who naturally produces both. But I have heard of both males and females who produce neither. External erogenous organ sensitivities, and the position of fluid evacuating exit points are really not that important a determinant of gender itself...but I understand how sex reassignment surgery might be important to some who really want how they feel to match with how they look. I also understand that it might not be a priority for all trans people, and, also some do not decidedly feel male or female at any given time and don’t want to be forced by the rest of society to make a choice.
So, I understand gender to be how someone feels and it may not be fully biologically determined. If someone has breasts and a vagina, doesn’t much want to have kids, but admires the roles of men in their life, or men they’ve observed, and has more of a proclivity towards jobs and activities that have been traditionally considered male, so be it. Maybe one person would consider themselves a female “tomboy”. The other might consider themselves male. One might identify as lesbian, one as a straight trans-male and/ or one as a straight female or a gay trans-male. Or maybe they identify as gender neutral. Same with male to female trans and non-binary. I get that and at one time it was totally new to me, but over time I have accepted that.
Then there are feminists who are frustrated because women have not reached the full equality that we have been seeking since forever....to those feminists it feels like every gain is subverted by another patriarchal trick. And non-binary gender feminism, or intersectional feminism as it relates to transgender, feels that way to them. They’re like, “Wait a minute. We’re still not equal so we’re not going to let someone with a penis call themselves a woman and take over . They’re not a ‘real’ woman.” I understand that instinct...but I think that if that person has long felt like a female but couldn’t express it...or has tried to and been shunned and ostracized and bullied and marginalized like so many trans people have... they are just as much, maybe more, oppressed and hurting than the average woman. They’re saying, “You are complaining about small gaps in wages and career advancement. We can’t even get a job anywhere, and we are discriminated against everywhere. Even the bathroom.” Which is where intersectionality makes sense. And, I have no problem encouraging more women and men to engage with feminist culture and ethos. I think/ hope the gender critical feminists will evolve to accept it too. They are a lot closer to being there than the traditional patriarchs.
I have been following, not as an admirer but as a critic, Jordan Peterson. Some of you may have noticed.
He just threw me for a big loop. On one hand he has been supporting Men’s Rights Activist positions, and is opposed to the recent court decision against Trinity Western’s LGBTQ discrimination. On the other, he just promoted a radical feminist artist named Nina Paley - whose work, I have to say is intriguing - and from a cis-women’s equality perspective, makes sense. And she calls out Patriarchy...which Peterson has denied exists. So, that’s interesting and I don’t know what to make of it.
This is where it gets fraught. She is a what’s called a Gender Critical feminist. Which means she does not think trans women are women. I don’t take that side, but I get both sides...or I am confused about both sides...of the argument.
I think that sex is biological, and gender is a social construct...that is to say, aside from a very few exceptions, people fall predominantly on the sperm producing organs human side, or the egg producing organs human side. I’ve never heard of anyone who naturally produces both. But I have heard of both males and females who produce neither. External erogenous organ sensitivities, and the position of fluid evacuating exit points are really not that important a determinant of gender itself...but I understand how sex reassignment surgery might be important to some who really want how they feel to match with how they look. I also understand that it might not be a priority for all trans people, and, also some do not decidedly feel male or female at any given time and don’t want to be forced by the rest of society to make a choice.
So, I understand gender to be how someone feels and it may not be fully biologically determined. If someone has breasts and a vagina, doesn’t much want to have kids, but admires the roles of men in their life, or men they’ve observed, and has more of a proclivity towards jobs and activities that have been traditionally considered male, so be it. Maybe one person would consider themselves a female “tomboy”. The other might consider themselves male. One might identify as lesbian, one as a straight trans-male and/ or one as a straight female or a gay trans-male. Or maybe they identify as gender neutral. Same with male to female trans and non-binary. I get that and at one time it was totally new to me, but over time I have accepted that.
Then there are feminists who are frustrated because women have not reached the full equality that we have been seeking since forever....to those feminists it feels like every gain is subverted by another patriarchal trick. And non-binary gender feminism, or intersectional feminism as it relates to transgender, feels that way to them. They’re like, “Wait a minute. We’re still not equal so we’re not going to let someone with a penis call themselves a woman and take over . They’re not a ‘real’ woman.” I understand that instinct...but I think that if that person has long felt like a female but couldn’t express it...or has tried to and been shunned and ostracized and bullied and marginalized like so many trans people have... they are just as much, maybe more, oppressed and hurting than the average woman. They’re saying, “You are complaining about small gaps in wages and career advancement. We can’t even get a job anywhere, and we are discriminated against everywhere. Even the bathroom.” Which is where intersectionality makes sense. And, I have no problem encouraging more women and men to engage with feminist culture and ethos. I think/ hope the gender critical feminists will evolve to accept it too. They are a lot closer to being there than the traditional patriarchs.
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RitaTG
Well-Known Member
Interesting post.....I am about to ask questions or my reflect thoughts in fraught territory...so here it goes...
I have been following, not as an admirer but as a critic, Jordan Peterson. Some of you may have noticed.
He just threw me for a big loop. On one hand he has been supporting Men’s Rights Activist positions, and is opposed to the recent court decision against Trinity Western’s LGBTQ discrimination. On the other, he just promoted a radical feminist artist named Nina Paley - whose work, I have to say is intriguing - and from a cis-women’s equality perspective, makes sense. And she calls out Patriarchy...which Peterson has denied exists. So, that’s interesting and I don’t know what to make of it.
This is where it gets fraught. She is a what’s called a Gender Critical feminist. Which means she does not think trans women are women. I don’t take that side, but I get both sides...or I am confused about both sides...of the argument.
I think that sex is biological, and gender is a social construct...that is to say, aside from a very few exceptions, people fall predominantly on the sperm producing organs human side, or the egg producing organs human side. I’ve never heard of anyone who naturally produces both. But I have heard of both males and females who produce neither. External erogenous organ sensitivities, and the position of fluid evacuating exit points are really not that important a determinant of gender itself...but I understand how sex reassignment surgery might be important to some who really want how they feel to match with how they look. I also understand that it might not be a priority for all trans people, and, also some do not decidedly feel male or female at any given time and don’t want to be forced by the rest of society to make a choice.
So, I understand gender to be how someone feels and it may not be fully biologically determined. If someone has breasts and a vagina, doesn’t much want to have kids, but admires the roles of men in their life, or men they’ve observed, and has more of a proclivity towards jobs and activities that have been traditionally considered male, so be it. Maybe one person would consider themselves a female “tomboy”. The other might consider themselves male. One might identify as lesbian, one as a straight trans-male and/ or one as a straight female or a gay trans-male. Or maybe they identify as gender neutral. Same with male to female trans and non-binary. I get that and at one time it was totally new to me, but over time I have accepted that.
Then there are feminists who are frustrated because women have not reached the full equality that we have been seeking since forever....to those feminists it feels like every gain is subverted by another patriarchal trick. And non-binary gender feminism, or intersectional feminism as it relates to transgender, feels that way to them. They’re like, “Wait a minute. We’re still not equal so we’re not going to let someone with a penis call themselves a woman and take over . They’re not a ‘real’ woman.” I understand that instinct...but I think that if that person has long felt like a female but couldn’t express it...or has tried to and been shunned and ostracized and bullied and marginalized like so many trans people have... they are just as much, maybe more, oppressed and hurting than the average woman. They’re saying, “You are complaining about small gaps in wages and career advancement. We can’t even get a job anywhere, and we are discriminated against everywhere. Even the bathroom.” Which is where intersectionality makes sense. And, I have no problem encouraging more women and men to engage with feminist culture and ethos. I think/ hope the gender critical feminists will evolve to accept it too. They are a lot closer to being there than the traditional patriarchs.
....I await Your questions....
My question I suppose, is can Gender Critical Feminists and those of a gender Non-Binary intersectional feminist perspective work together to overcome the common denominator that’s at the root of oppression of all marginalized groups...which, for all feminists, is patriarchy?
What would each side need to do to get to common ground?
I think both sides have important points to make and commonalities in the discrimination they face. And, I see feminism as something that seeks equality for all marginalized groups. It’s not about women only - I don’t think of it as a “women’s club” - it’s a group of theories to address social problems from a less hierarchical, more lateral (even playing field) perspective, and it is about changing culture so that patriarchal values and norms don’t continue to dominate.
What would each side need to do to get to common ground?
I think both sides have important points to make and commonalities in the discrimination they face. And, I see feminism as something that seeks equality for all marginalized groups. It’s not about women only - I don’t think of it as a “women’s club” - it’s a group of theories to address social problems from a less hierarchical, more lateral (even playing field) perspective, and it is about changing culture so that patriarchal values and norms don’t continue to dominate.
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*lateral... should’ve said horizontal.
RitaTG
Well-Known Member
The answer is simple.
Start by acknowledging the truth within the person experiencing gender dysphoria. It matters not what you believe from the outside. Just respect where they are coming from and listen. Ideology is unimportant in that step. First and foremost it is about a person and where they are at. Ideology can be discussed later once the heart is appreciated.
Make it about a person rather than an issue. There is the start and it is really not that hard to achieve.
Start by acknowledging the truth within the person experiencing gender dysphoria. It matters not what you believe from the outside. Just respect where they are coming from and listen. Ideology is unimportant in that step. First and foremost it is about a person and where they are at. Ideology can be discussed later once the heart is appreciated.
Make it about a person rather than an issue. There is the start and it is really not that hard to achieve.
Wish I could “like” that. We need a like button here!
The question remains if both sides will do that or not.
The question remains if both sides will do that or not.
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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As always, RitaTG, you exude class
You are a good advocate for us genderwyrd
And a necessary balm against the ideological extremists who screech the loudest but don't represent True Genderwyrd: those quiet moderates like you who do more with a gentle hug and a smile and a listen than years of agitations
You are a good advocate for us genderwyrd
And a necessary balm against the ideological extremists who screech the loudest but don't represent True Genderwyrd: those quiet moderates like you who do more with a gentle hug and a smile and a listen than years of agitations
Word is important ... almost like a god ... and then silence when you wish to observe god without ungodly rackets ... tis my old friend ... thus laid out in metaphor! Some believe it all a'gory bloody as life in reality .. thus virtue as alternate ... a state of mind preventing physical messes ... thus out there ... in space, time and light of the situation disturbing the abstract (dark, and creatively yet-unknown) ... parallelism as versus hypo-bola is opening up ... virually seen as some tyrant men have some of their mother in them as well as the grandmother ...
The opposite is true too and my angry grandfather appeared in some of my aunts ... they were madash 'L' ... terrible dissonance ... and the offspring were variably cranked ... quantum lyres! Mythical by chance ...
Spirit Wind 7
Living on the edge. (she/her)
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"I can only choose for myself.
I choose dialogue without expectations." RitaTG
Those words are innate wisdom. Thank you RitaTG.
I wish others would/could choose this in discussions of any kind. Not judging helps relieve thinking right off and allows them to sink in as belonging rightly to the speaker. We own what we say, it is our truth. Respect the speaker and their speak.
Then we are on a balanced level... the one where acceptance can live quite well.
It is when we assume so much we run aground. And that is on the assumer alone. Choosing to let go of assumptions
can be difficult especially if we have caught them when very young. Yet children are so very accepting, till someone says something, or gives them that look. Then they step back and can be afraid.
But as adults we can move on to the base I have said before: that Jesus message from God to give us all, is that God's
love is totally unconditional. So it is our love we must align with that precious and never ending love of the Creator.
Too bad this isn't the big first learning of every child. They are beloved.... no one left out.
Thank you RitaTG for sharing your heart here. You have done so live and I have been there.
Grace UC is lucky indeed.
Namaste ....
I choose dialogue without expectations." RitaTG
Those words are innate wisdom. Thank you RitaTG.
I wish others would/could choose this in discussions of any kind. Not judging helps relieve thinking right off and allows them to sink in as belonging rightly to the speaker. We own what we say, it is our truth. Respect the speaker and their speak.
Then we are on a balanced level... the one where acceptance can live quite well.
It is when we assume so much we run aground. And that is on the assumer alone. Choosing to let go of assumptions
can be difficult especially if we have caught them when very young. Yet children are so very accepting, till someone says something, or gives them that look. Then they step back and can be afraid.
But as adults we can move on to the base I have said before: that Jesus message from God to give us all, is that God's
love is totally unconditional. So it is our love we must align with that precious and never ending love of the Creator.
Too bad this isn't the big first learning of every child. They are beloved.... no one left out.
Thank you RitaTG for sharing your heart here. You have done so live and I have been there.
Grace UC is lucky indeed.
Namaste ....
Spirit Wind 7
Living on the edge. (she/her)
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- Other (specify in your title)
Yet those who are aware can live that love..... actually the only way is by example.
Those who get it and finally understand can also share enough of it to reach the heart.
Maybe Trump's wife and daughter called him out, even briefly, from the self serving aspect of his mind.
There is a lot for them to do now to reconcile the families, let alone the people who were screaming at him from
the USA to across the oceans. We who are far away physically, can live the love here and pray.
Call people to Prayer wherever they are. And do it... the love thing.
We also have a lot to answer for still here in Canada, so we must be doing that here as well.
Strongly protesting delays and living the love that loved us first.
Peace...
Those who get it and finally understand can also share enough of it to reach the heart.
Maybe Trump's wife and daughter called him out, even briefly, from the self serving aspect of his mind.
There is a lot for them to do now to reconcile the families, let alone the people who were screaming at him from
the USA to across the oceans. We who are far away physically, can live the love here and pray.
Call people to Prayer wherever they are. And do it... the love thing.
We also have a lot to answer for still here in Canada, so we must be doing that here as well.
Strongly protesting delays and living the love that loved us first.
Peace...
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