Time for a Deep Breath: Psalm 23

[paradox3]

So the question then becomes, why is The Lord keeping us?

To sing God's praises?

To do God's work in the world?

To advance the kingdom?

Because God desires relationship with us?

 

[Mendalla]

To sing God's praises?

To do God's work in the world?

To advance the kingdom?

Because God desires relationship with us?

To um, have us for lunch.

But seriously, while I am not necessarily impugning the Good Lord as being some kind of vicious predator, none of those is in the same league as sheering off our coat or slitting our throats and roasting us over an open fire. From the standpoint of a sheep, shepherds are really the kind face of a rather dark reality of exploitation. The psalm is very much a sanitized, humancentric take on that reality. Which you would expect from that society. The idea of non-hominin animals as beings with feelings is a modern, if not post-modern, one.

As an image of God, one could read it to mean God is taking care of us for his own purposes, not out of any special love for us. That does, however, contradict what we see in many other places in both Jewish and Christian scriptures.

 

[paradox3]

The sheep and shepherd allegory only goes so far.

Do we need to think of it more like a parable, then?

 

[Waterfall]

To um, have us for lunch.

But seriously, while I am not necessarily impugning the Good Lord as being some kind of vicious predator, none of those is in the same league as sheering off our coat or slitting our throats and roasting us over an open fire. From the standpoint of a sheep, shepherds are really the kind face of a rather dark reality of exploitation. The psalm is very much a sanitized, humancentric take on that reality. Which you would expect from that society. The idea of non-hominin animals as beings with feelings is a modern, if not post-modern, one.

As an image of God, one could read it to mean God is taking care of us for his own purposes, not out of any special love for us. That does, however, contradict what we see in many other places in both Jewish and Christian scriptures.

I suppose being a good shepherd, he would lead us out of the slaughter....BUT it's probably not part of the job description or what a shepherd actually does. It's just what the sheep would want and sheep are notorious for following the leader.

 

[Mystic]

Phillip Keller makes an interesting point about 23:5 in his book, "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23:"

"You prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies."

The Shepherd goes ahead to the next valley to watch for dangers and root out noxious weeds or any other plants that are bad for sheep health.

Last year I was crossing a street at a busy intersection in town. The nearby driver at the stop sign didn't see me, as I stepped in front of him at the curb.
He zoomed at me and I somehow showed amazing reflexes in jumping back. He just missed me by an inch or 2. Shortly thereafter. I received a frantic call from Quentin in far-away Buffalo who has never called me before or since. Quentin had been in my youth group when I pastored a church in Buffalo. He said he had just had a powerful premonition that I had been killed and was desperate to know the truth. I told him about my close call. I've often wondered if my heavenly Shepherd had aniticipated the danger I was facing and given me better than usual reflexes to escape it. In any case, the precise timing of Quentin's premonition seems paranormal, even providential.

 

[paradox3]

I suppose being a good shepherd, he would lead us out of the slaughter....BUT it's probably not part of the job description or what a shepherd actually does. It's just what the sheep would want and sheep are notorious for following the leader.

Or perhaps the shepherd understands the inevitability of some sheep being slaughtered. They are raised for both meat and wool, after all.

The poor sheep lead perilous lives. So do we.

Could this even be the whole point of the psalm? God can't prevent bad things happening to us but God promises to be present.

This is a major theme in Kushner's book.

 

[paradox3]

Phillip Keller makes an interesting point about 23:5 in his book, "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23:"

"You prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies."

The Shepherd goes ahead to the next valley to watch for dangers and root out noxious weeds or any other plants that are bad for sheep health.

Last year I was crossing a street at a busy intersection in town. The nearby driver at the stop sign didn't see me, as I stepped in front of him at the curb.
He zoomed at me and I somehow showed amazing reflexes in jumping back. He just missed me by an inch or 2. Shortly thereafter. I received a frantic call from Quentin in far-away Buffalo who has never called me before or since. Quentin had been in my youth group when I pastored a church in Buffalo. He said he had just had a powerful premonition that I had been killed and was desperate to know the truth. I told him about my close call. I've often wondered if my heavenly Shepherd had aniticipated the danger I was facing and given me better than usual reflexes to escape it. In any case, the precise timing of Quentin's premonition seems paranormal, even providential.

These curious coincidences sure make us wonder, don't they?

 

[Waterfall]

Or perhaps the shepherd understands the inevitability of some sheep being slaughtered. They are raised for both meat and wool, after all.

The poor sheep lead perilous lives. So do we.

Could this even be the whole point of the psalm? God can't prevent bad things happening to us but God promises to be present.

This is a major theme in Kushner's book.

It sounds good but then we are faced with the fact that God can't do something and that opens up a can of worms.
Could be he can but won't? Or he has an overall plan that we aren't privy to.

 

[Mendalla]

It sounds good but then we are faced with the fact that God can't do something and that opens up a can of worms.
Could be he can but won't? Or he has an overall plan that we aren't privy to.

You could go the process route where God's power is to guide us (meaning all beings, not just humans) to do his Will rather than being able to magic all the bad stuff away.

EDIT: Of course, that kind of makes God a rather different shepherd, one who works through other shepherds rather than directly.

 

[Mystic]

Here is a more dramatic example that parallels my testimony in post #46. Dr. E. Stanley Jones, a Methodist medical missionary to India, was perhaps the most famous Methodist minister of the 20th century. He tells the story of going to an Indian airport to book a flight to Dehli to attend a missionary conference where he was to be keynote speaker. But as he waited in a long ticket line, an inner voice insisted that he get out of line. At first he dismissed this message as unfounded paranoia. But the more he did, the more insistent the voice became! Finally, he succumbed to the voice and called conference officials to explain why he wasn't coming. Then the plane crashed, killing all its hundreds of passengers.

The fame of E. Stanley Jones made this miraculous escape big news. A Hindu reporter asked him, "So are you saying that God loved you so much that He warned only you and let hundreds of Hindus die?" Jones replied, "Oh no, God loves Hindus at least as much as me. It's just that I was the only one who was listening (to inner guidance)." On one level, this incident illustrates the protective Shepherd going on ahead to remove dangers fot those who listen for His voice. But it also raises the question of the conditions of divine guidance when faced with the chaos of tragedies that God does not control.

 

[Luce NDs]

Here is a more dramatic example that parallels my testimony in post #46. Dr. E. Stanley Jones, a Methodist medical missionary to India, was perhaps the most famous Methodist minister of the 20th century. He tells the story of going to an Indian airport to book a flight to Dehli to attend a missionary conference where he was to be keynote speaker. But as he waited in a long ticket line, an inner voice insisted that he get out of line. At first he dismissed this message as unfounded paranoia. But the more he did, the more insistent the voice became! Finally, he succumbed to the voice and called conference officials to explain why he wasn't coming. Then the plane crashed, killing all its hundreds of passengers.

The fame of E. Stanley Jones made this miraculous escape big news. A Hindu reporter asked him, "So are you saying that God loved you so much that He warned only you and let hundreds of Hindus die?" Jones replied, "Oh no, God loves Hindus at least as much as me. It's just that I was the only one who was listening (to inner guidance)." On one level, this incident illustrates the protective Shepherd going on ahead to remove dangers fot those who listen for His voice. But it also raises the question of the conditions of divine guidance when faced with the chaos of tragedies that God does not control.

There's always a crack in something that incarnates as sane ... but isn't ... face it people are strange when compared to their declared standards of behaviour!

God had to but the lyre somewhere else ... or heaven would be disrupted by howls ...

 

[Mendalla]

ut it also raises the question of the conditions of divine guidance when faced with the chaos of tragedies that God does not control.

Which again, circles back into process. God could warn (through intuition or whatever) that something bad was looming but couldn't intervene. It's then incumbent on us to follow that "lure" (to use the process term), which Jones apparently did.

 

[JayneWonders]

Here is a more dramatic example that parallels my testimony in post #46. Dr. E. Stanley Jones, a Methodist medical missionary to India, was perhaps the most famous Methodist minister of the 20th century. He tells the story of going to an Indian airport to book a flight to Dehli to attend a missionary conference where he was to be keynote speaker. But as he waited in a long ticket line, an inner voice insisted that he get out of line. At first he dismissed this message as unfounded paranoia. But the more he did, the more insistent the voice became! Finally, he succumbed to the voice and called conference officials to explain why he wasn't coming. Then the plane crashed, killing all its hundreds of passengers.

The fame of E. Stanley Jones made this miraculous escape big news. A Hindu reporter asked him, "So are you saying that God loved you so much that He warned only you and let hundreds of Hindus die?" Jones replied, "Oh no, God loves Hindus at least as much as me. It's just that I was the only one who was listening (to inner guidance)." On one level, this incident illustrates the protective Shepherd going on ahead to remove dangers fot those who listen for His voice. But it also raises the question of the conditions of divine guidance when faced with the chaos of tragedies that God does not control.

Absolutely hate this story. Despise it. Really, he thought it was a good idea to say that those hundreds died as they didn't listen? For f***'s sake. If he was so smart, and such a believer, he would have told the airport there was a problem with the plane.

This is why folks sometimes despise the righteous amongst us.

 

[Luce NDs]

Absolutely hate this story. Despise it. Really, he thought it was a good idea to say that those hundreds died as they didn't listen? For f***'s sake. If he was so smart, and such a believer, he would have told the airport there was a problem with the plane.

This is why folks sometimes despise the righteous amongst us.

It may be the survival instinct that drives the rich and powerful regarding others knowing alternate escapes! Thus they demand that the vernacular folk know little ... and the vernacular shrinks in shame ...

You can see it on the other side of the bell curve. Did you know that Bell was once a word for d' evil? The evil being disadvantaged people because of unknown causes and reason ... explaining why reason is subtle ... some say Gnostic (hidden mystery).

Survival is the key to stay out of ethereal domains ... you know up there according to the upper occupancy regulations and protocol ...

Myself; I've never trusted hard protocol ...

Then does church care about de Bell and the little folk or just those up there ... so many screw-ups! Marriage tends towards legalism, rites ... and then nothing is left do to lack of th' ought ... mind is considered nothing ... a gonad! More true than folk are aware and WOKE! Like Sometimes in the Morning When Shadows are Deep ... the point may be outstanding ...

However economics in the church may go on much longer than the folk entangled ... lyres? Linesmen and fetes of alien nature on the Ba'aL beyond us Stratos ... high 'r ... it is truly dark out there ... and it cannot be regarded by those ... ire regardless ... mad sights?

 

[unsafe]

This is why folks sometimes despise the righteous amongst us.

Wow ___the righteous despised for actually listening to an inner intuition of protection ------

God gives both the unrighteous and the righteous good and bad intuition -----But do we pay attention to the bad -----or do we ignore it -----that is the Question

I wonder how many non righteous people had the gut feeling that something wasn't right with this flight but ignored the warning and never said a word to anyone about their bad gut feeling about getting on the the flight -----and just got on anyway ------warning no one about their gut feeling about something bad happening in the air ------

Your surmising that this person knew exactly there would be a problem with the plane itself ---when in fact there may have been another issue that was in the cards ----God knows the Future ---you don't -----maybe there could be a hijacker on the plane ---or may be a passenger may go off the rails and start killing people on the plane ------the bad gut feeling that a person has is a warning ---to listen up ---and adhere to the warning -------you have free will to choose to obey your gut feeling or to ignore it ------

I am sure many who went to work on 911 had a bad feeling in their gut but ignored it and went anyway ----and there are stories of people who did adhere to their bad gut feeling and were spared ---Not one of those people knew that a plane would enter the towers --all they knew is they didn't feel right in their gut that morning -----so are you blaming all these people for not reporting that the building would be hit by planes and that many would die ------

It is sad that you despise that God provided all people with and inner instinct that warns when danger is approaching them -----and they ignore this prompting and advance into the danger all by themselves ----passing off the bad feeling as -----Oh --this is just me thinking bad thoughts --nothing will happen -----and away you go straight into the danger ------

This is when the gift of spiritual discernment is very important to get and apply -----good judgment when you have a bad gut feeling

Greek word for discernment
diakrisis: the act of judgment

 

[Mendalla]

Wow ___the righteous despised for actually listening to an inner intuition of protection

The problem is that stories like that are often repeatedly used to show superiority or are tossed out as arguments in support of God or the faith of the person tossing it out. In fact, an event like that should be an opportunity for humility, to recognize that there but for grace go I and to meditate on our mortality. So I get Jayne's reaction fully.

And let's end that discussion here. This thread is about about Psalm 23, not Mystic or his statements and stories. That goes for Mystic himself, too. This is not a thread for promoting your faith or stories, but discussing one specific psalm.

I am a mod in this forum and while I do not like to throw that weight around, I will if this tangent continues.

 

[Mystic]

Everyone recognizes that Jesus' parable of the Lost Sheep in Luke 15:3-7 stresses how God makes the retrieval of the lost His top priority.
One implication of the parable gets overlooked. The Shepherd left the 99 alone and therefore vulnerable in his quest for the lost sheep
In Psalm 23 the Shepherd's care must not be misinterpreted to mean that the sheep are guaranteed protection from danger.

I will share no more personal applications of Psalm 23, except to conclude that Jayne's vitriol requires this response. When I was 19, I was invited to dinner with Dallas after his honeymoon. He mentioned that he and some friends were going hunting the next day. I suddenly sensed his skeleton and somehow knew he'd be killed in a hunting accident, and so I warned him not to go. He angrily dismissed my premonition as mean-spirited and lacking evidence. Well, his rifle accidentally discharged into his shoulder and he bled to death. So Jayne, E. Stanley Jones can be excused for not warning the airline of its impending crash without evidence!

 

[Mendalla]

I will share no more personal applications of Psalm 23, except to conclude that Jayne's vitriol requires this response. When I was 19, I was invited to dinner with Dallas after his honeymoon. He mentioned that he and some friends were going hunting the next day. I suddenly sensed his skeleton and somehow knew he'd be killed in a hunting accident, and so I warned him not to go. He angrily dismissed my premonition as mean-spirited and lacking evidence. Well, his rifle accidentally discharged into his shoulder and he bled to death. So Jayne, E. Stanley Jones can be excused for not warning the airline of its impending crash without evidence!

Did you read my post? That was not an invitation to you to respond to Jayne, but for everyone to let the whole thing drop and focus on the Psalm.

From BPoTW 101, which is the forum charter:

Please keep threads on topic. BPoTW is intended as a focused forum with a specific theme, similar to a specialty forum. As in specialty forums, we ask that tangents and digressions be taken to threads in the appropriate general forum, usually Religion & Faith for discussion in this site.

I won't drop a thread-ban yet, but this is stopping now.

 

[paradox3]

This thread has taken a disappointing turn and I am done with it. Will be back with another BPoTW in about a month's time.

 

[Luce NDs]

This thread has taken a disappointing turn and I am done with it. Will be back with another BPoTW in about a month's time.

It is a hard road ... something to span as colossus ... colonizing ... to get over? Yet many hard points as pious ... lower 'd respect the rodding and shafting ...