The Medium/Witch at Endor, 1 Samuel 28:3-25

[Luce NDs]

There is a definite implication of some kind of afterlife there, which is odd for the Hebrew scriptures (as discussed in the Ehrman book some of us have been discussing in Study Groups). Belief in resurrection did exist in Judaism before Christianity emerged, but it came along well after the exile in Babylon when most of the Jewish scriptures were already written. And there doesn't seem to have been a belief in a separate, immortal soul as we see with the Greeks.

It really feels like someone being awakened from a nap and getting a bit pissy about it. I have been known to do that. So maybe the afterlife is just a cozy, dreamy sleep state?

Go wat wit yah ... the hard core will declare the afterlife has to be physical ... not an imagined state like a constructed psyche! Abstract?

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla ----you said -----There is a definite implication of some kind of afterlife there, which is odd for the Hebrew scriptures (as discussed in the Ehrman book some of us have been discussing in Study Groups).

I say --------Here is a scripture that definitely indicates that the soul departed in the Old testament ----Rachael was one of Jacob's wives -and died giving child birth -----below is the scripture in context

Genesis 35:18​

“And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.”

King James Version (KJV)


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Genesis 35:18 Context​

15And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel. 16And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour. 17And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. 18And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. 19And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem. 20And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day. 21And Israel journeyed, and spread his tent beyond the tower of Edar.

Posting here
This is the Hebrew word used for soul or breath in this scripture above ------some scripture say soul some say breath -----both mean the same thing

Strong's Concordance
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

departs at death and returns with life: וַיְתִי בְּצֵאת נַפְשָׁהּ כִּי מֵתָה Genesis 35:18 (E) and it came to pass when her soul was going forth (for she died); נָָֽפְחָה נַפְשָׁהּ Jeremiah 15:9 she breathed out her soul

 

[Redbaron]

Mendalla ----you said -----There is a definite implication of some kind of afterlife there, which is odd for the Hebrew scriptures (as discussed in the Ehrman book some of us have been discussing in Study Groups).

I say --------Here is a scripture that definitely indicates that the soul departed in the Old testament ----Rachael was one of Jacob's wives -and died giving child birth -----below is the scripture in context

Genesis 35:18​

“And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.”

King James Version (KJV)


< Previous Verse
Next Verse >
▲ View Chapter

Genesis 35:18 Context​

15And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel. 16And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour. 17And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. 18And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. 19And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem. 20And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day. 21And Israel journeyed, and spread his tent beyond the tower of Edar.

Posting here
This is the Hebrew word used for soul or breath in this scripture above ------some scripture say soul some say breath -----both mean the same thing

Strong's Concordance
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

departs at death and returns with life: וַיְתִי בְּצֵאת נַפְשָׁהּ כִּי מֵתָה Genesis 35:18 (E) and it came to pass when her soul was going forth (for she died); נָָֽפְחָה נַפְשָׁהּ Jeremiah 15:9 she breathed out her soul

As Mendalla indicated, there are a number of views of the afterlife (or lack thereof) in the Hebrew Scriptures. One verse out of many does NOT nullify the difference in viewpoints contained in the whole corpus.

 

[unsafe]

Redbaron ----you said ----
One verse out of many does NOT nullify the difference in viewpoints contained in the whole corpus.

Well again that is your opinion and your entitled to it ------the verse definitely shows that souls departed in the Old Testament ------

 

[BetteTheRed]

A soul can "depart" in any number of fashions. As the Ehrmann book points out, this can be a "departure" simply to the grave, to nothingness, or a departure for another place, like "heaven" or "hell", or even a departure to a "waiting room" of sorts in preparation for reincarnation.

There's a ton of different theologies around the end of life, probably even more in the Hebrew Scripture than the New Testament, just as a reflection of the many years over which it was constructed and the evolution of beliefs around a life after death.

 

[unsafe]

Bart say this ------His quote here -----read all if you wish ---I am judt posting this part

Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says

Bart Ehrman says the ideas of eternal rewards and punishments aren't found in the Old Testament or in the teachings of Jesus. His new book is Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife.

www.npr.org

EHRMAN:

In the Old Testament, what we would call the soul is really more like what we would call the breath. When God creates Adam, he creates him out of earth, and then he breathes life into him. The life is in the breath. When the breath leaves the body, the body no longer lives, but the breath doesn't exist. We agree with this. I mean, when you die, you stop breathing. Your breath doesn't go anywhere. And that was the ancient understanding, the ancient Hebrew understanding of the soul, is that it didn't go anywhere because it was simply the thing that made the body alive.

And so in the Old Testament, there's no idea that your soul goes one place or another because the soul doesn't exist apart from the body.
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This scripture where Rachael dies in Genesis -----says different ------the soul is the breath ----the body is not animated as a baby until we take that first breath --soul entered ---and so the soul is the breath ----and when we die we exhale that first breath out and the soul departs the body stops being animated ---this makes perfect sense ------and it does go somewhere ----even in the Old Testament Folks -----this puts a big hole in his theological statement here ------

He indicates the soul is the breath ----but believes the exhaled breath goes nowhere -----he is a little mixed up here I think ------just saying -----

 

[Mendalla]

Bart say this ------His quote here -----read all if you wish ---I am judt posting this part

Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says

Bart Ehrman says the ideas of eternal rewards and punishments aren't found in the Old Testament or in the teachings of Jesus. His new book is Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife.

www.npr.org

EHRMAN:

In the Old Testament, what we would call the soul is really more like what we would call the breath. When God creates Adam, he creates him out of earth, and then he breathes life into him. The life is in the breath. When the breath leaves the body, the body no longer lives, but the breath doesn't exist. We agree with this. I mean, when you die, you stop breathing. Your breath doesn't go anywhere. And that was the ancient understanding, the ancient Hebrew understanding of the soul, is that it didn't go anywhere because it was simply the thing that made the body alive.

And so in the Old Testament, there's no idea that your soul goes one place or another because the soul doesn't exist apart from the body.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This scripture where Rachael dies in Genesis -----says different ------the soul is the breath ----the body is not animated as a baby until we take that first breath --soul entered ---and so the soul is the breath ----and when we die we exhale that first breath out and the soul departs the body stops being animated ---this makes perfect sense ------and it does go somewhere ----even in the Old Testament Folks -----this puts a big hole in his theological statement here ------

He indicates the soul is the breath ----but believes the exhaled breath goes nowhere -----he is a little mixed up here I think ------just saying -----

We are not here to discuss Bart Ehrman. Bette and I simply brought him in because he does reflect on this passage in the book we are both reading, which you have not read to the best of my knowledge. We already know your opinion of his work and disagree with that opinion. There is a thread already in place where you can argue with him.

 

[unsafe]

So it is alright for you both to bring up Bart but not any body else --bit hypocritical I would say ---now your telling people what they can and can't post on a open form -----if you don't want Bart mentioned then all posters should refrain from using his name in this thread -----in all fairness ----

 

[BetteTheRed]

The point is, if you've read the whole book (do it several times; I'm working on my third read-through), through MANY pages, and MANY chapters, he DEVELOPS and IDENTIFIES the different streams of thought that inform the VARIOUS AND MANY ideas of the afterlife that appear through our assorted sacred scriptures (Ehrmann doesn't too much get into the Talmud(s), but he could have, I'm sure).

If you're trying to argue that he is arguing for one single position, either go read the book or shut up. An NPR interview that you take a snippet from is not the same as reading a long, thoughtful book several times. He does not take a definitive position on the subject. He offers dozens of different little glimpses from various parts of scripture and ancient Greek and other stories to provide a few prisms through which to look at the subject. Some of us like looking at things like this. If you don't, we wouldn't mind if you'd stop pissing in our cornflakes.

If you're trying to argue that there is ONE single position, and it would, coincidentally, be yours, well, knock yourself out, because that seems to be your solo MO. Especially since it's now clear that you don't do "plain reading", like you brag that you do. I wish you'd find somewhere else to tilt at stupid windmills.

 

[Luce NDs]

The point is, if you've read the whole book (do it several times; I'm working on my third read-through), through MANY pages, and MANY chapters, he DEVELOPS and IDENTIFIES the different streams of thought that inform the VARIOUS AND MANY ideas of the afterlife that appear through our assorted sacred scriptures (Ehrmann doesn't too much get into the Talmud(s), but he could have, I'm sure).

If you're trying to argue that he is arguing for one single position, either go read the book or shut up. An NPR interview that you take a snippet from is not the same as reading a long, thoughtful book several times. He does not take a definitive position on the subject. He offers dozens of different little glimpses from various parts of scripture and ancient Greek and other stories to provide a few prisms through which to look at the subject. Some of us like looking at things like this. If you don't, we wouldn't mind if you'd stop pissing in our cornflakes.

If you're trying to argue that there is ONE single position, and it would, coincidentally, be yours, well, knock yourself out, because that seems to be your solo MO. Especially since it's now clear that you don't do "plain reading", like you brag that you do. I wish you'd find somewhere else to tilt at stupid windmills.

You seem to be saying there is more to it in depth ... and not a place for those that like simple to go right at the moment if ill prepared for complexity! I went through these texts so log ago it is lodged in the depths of that alien organ of cognizance ... few have seen it from the surface ... facetiae? Text can be like that or not ... depending on how many talents received and intelligence is hard to share ... as many wish not to know ...

Word is an alien thing coming from log ago and far away ... more than the metaphor of a dippy thong ... yet intriguing when stripped down in derivation ... virtue out there is not acceptable! That's the truth ... is truth judgmental or just exposing perspective to the vanishing point ...

Then darkness and mystery about it and the source ... all displaced ...

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed -------your quote -----If you're trying to argue that he is arguing for one single position, either go read the book or shut up.

LOL ----Thought you had me on ignore -----------and NO I WON"Y SHUT UP -----I have a right to post just like all others on this sight ------so just maybe you need to take your own advice and you do the shutting up -----and we all know just how much you and others dislike what I post -that is no secret to me or others on this sight -----

This is the reason probably others of the over 300 on this sight don't want to post their real views as they will be squashed and targeted for saying what they believe ------it is all right for certain people to post their views ----but not others cause they don't line up with your views ----

 

[Redbaron]

BetteTheRed -------your quote -----If you're trying to argue that he is arguing for one single position, either go read the book or shut up.

LOL ----Thought you had me on ignore -----------and NO I WON"Y SHUT UP -----I have a right to post just like all others on this sight ------so just maybe you need to take your own advice and you do the shutting up -----and we all know just how much you and others dislike what I post -that is no secret to me or others on this sight -----

This is the reason probably others of the over 300 on this sight don't want to post their real views as they will be squashed and targeted for saying what they believe ------it is all right for certain people to post their views ----but not others cause they don't line up with your views ----

unsafe, if you are going to talk about the book, you should actually read the book. When BetteTheRed speaks about the book, she is speaking from first hand knowledge of what is in the book. When you speak about the book you speak (and show) your total ignorance of the book. She is actually adding something to the thread topic and ongoing conversation.

 

[Mendalla]

This thread appears to have run its course since Bart Ehrman is getting discussed more than Samuel or Saul. Closing it since the new BPotW is up.